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General Topics => General Chat => Topic started by: Paradisio on June 17, 2013, 11:29:30 PM

Title: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Paradisio on June 17, 2013, 11:29:30 PM
The secular legal systems of America and the like don't seem to take spells seriously even though they can harm people in ways similar to weapons. Because of this if I were to cast a spell that killed someone there wouldn't be a punishment. Doesn't this then imply that the government doesn't actually punish people in ways that are just and is in itself an unjust institution. Or perhaps what it means is that laws should be reformed to institute punishments for spells. Though then the question arises how could you in a court of law prove that someone had committed a spell that harmed someone. How can you prove to the jury that it was the spell caster and not coincidence as many of these secular people nowadays seem to believe?
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: StarlingFire on June 17, 2013, 11:33:03 PM
The secular legal systems of America and the like don't seem to take spells seriously even though they can harm people in ways similar to weapons. Because of this if I were to cast a spell that killed someone there wouldn't be a punishment. Doesn't this then imply that the government doesn't actually punish people in ways that are just and is in itself an unjust institution. Or perhaps what it means is that laws should be reformed to institute punishments for spells. Though then the question arises how could you in a court of law prove that someone had committed a spell that harmed someone. How can you prove to the jury that it was the spell caster and not coincidence as many of these secular people nowadays seem to believe?

The legal realm and the spiritual realm are best kept separate, IMO.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: dragonspring on June 17, 2013, 11:34:49 PM
No kidding. What a mess that would be - it would be like the Salem witch trials all over again. 
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Stormjester on June 17, 2013, 11:38:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Paradisio on June 17, 2013, 11:41:57 PM
The secular legal systems of America and the like don't seem to take spells seriously even though they can harm people in ways similar to weapons. Because of this if I were to cast a spell that killed someone there wouldn't be a punishment. Doesn't this then imply that the government doesn't actually punish people in ways that are just and is in itself an unjust institution. Or perhaps what it means is that laws should be reformed to institute punishments for spells. Though then the question arises how could you in a court of law prove that someone had committed a spell that harmed someone. How can you prove to the jury that it was the spell caster and not coincidence as many of these secular people nowadays seem to believe?

The legal realm and the spiritual realm are best kept separate, IMO.
But why? If a spell hurts someone shouldn't they be punished for it. If we don't punish people for spells then why punish them for knife fights or shootings? The legal system needs consistency if nothing else.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Paradisio on June 17, 2013, 11:44:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
So if it's hard to prove that someone did a specific spell, then how do we know they work at all? (I've never done any spells but I am open to their efficacy.) Or could you're argument be that the government can be wrong so it shouldn't have the ability to punish anyone for anything, and punishment should be left to the spiritual forces of the universe like Karma.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Ghost Wolf on June 17, 2013, 11:49:41 PM
In a court of law, one must prove a case involving murder beyond a reasonable doubt. How could such a certainty be established? We would end up like certain African countries where people are executed for witchcraft. Is this what you want?
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Paradisio on June 18, 2013, 12:03:04 AM
In a court of law, one must prove a case involving murder beyond a reasonable doubt. How could such a certainty be established? We would end up like certain African countries where people are executed for witchcraft. Is this what you want?
No, I'm just asking questions. What I am saying is that there are only a few scenarios.

1. Spells work and can kill. The legal system acts consistently. You go to jail for killing someone with a spell.
2. Spells work and can kill. The legal system remains inconsistent. You don't go to jail for killing someone with a spell.
3. Spells don't work and can't kill. The legal system acts consistently. You can't go to jail for casting spells.
4. Spells don't work and can't kill. The legal system acts inconsistently. You can receive legal punishment for casting spells.

Disragarding that specifically however, you bring up one of my points which is that governments are fallible. Even if it was very clear that I killed someone with a super powerful spell, it would still be nigh impossible for someone to prove that I did it. This same thing happens even with regular crimes where people are cleared by DNA for crimes they didn't commit but went to jail for years for. What this implies then is that punishment ought to be left to spiritual forces like Karma rather than the fallible grasp of government because it is very easy for people with that much power to go around starting up things like the Salem Witch trials. This implies that government should have no punishment powers whatsoever because of how easily that power can be used unjustly.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: StarlingFire on June 18, 2013, 12:11:46 AM
Why so absolutist? Are there no shades of gray?
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Paradisio on June 18, 2013, 12:14:39 AM
Why so absolutist? Are there no shades of gray?
Would there be shades of grey if it was you being burned at the stake or wrongly imprisoned for something you didn't do?
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: StarlingFire on June 18, 2013, 12:22:33 AM
Why so absolutist? Are there no shades of gray?
Would there be shades of grey if it was you being burned at the stake or wrongly imprisoned for something you didn't do?

What
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: holyfool on June 18, 2013, 12:29:04 AM
Why so absolutist? Are there no shades of gray?
Would there be shades of grey if it was you being burned at the stake or wrongly imprisoned for something you didn't do?

How would one be able to detect that malevolent witchcraft had occurred?
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: StarlingFire on June 18, 2013, 12:30:37 AM
I'm sure that if it were provable, the courts would have a system for proving and punishing it.

But it's not provable. It has no tangible substance.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: holyfool on June 18, 2013, 12:33:40 AM
But it's not provable. It has no tangible substance.
That we know of...currently.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Stormjester on June 18, 2013, 12:34:19 AM
The real scenario:

You use magick and kill someone. Some high level adept sees that you are responsible. They do magick, and you go to jail.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Mongo on June 18, 2013, 12:34:44 AM
Well let me ask this.

Say I were to cast a spell that caused someone to lose their coordination when I knew them to be free-climbing a mountain. They fell off the mountain from a thousand feet up and went ker-splat on the rocks on the bottom.

How would you prove that it was me that did it and not just a bit of bad luck. After all mountain climbers fall and die all the time. California, Washington State, Colorado, Wyoming, Alaska have between 10 and 20 deaths per year on average. Splitting the difference and that's 75 deaths per year in those 5 states alone. How would you prove that a person was nudged off of a rock face due to a spell? How do you tie it to me.

Or for that matter, how do you prove that it was really a horrific accident and not me casting a spell. Say I was someone who did not like him. If they knew that I was a Wiccan and a Spell Chucker, how do you prove that I didn't fondle the goat's testicles to get him to fall off of El Capitan?

And that's the problem. There is no way at this time to quantify what Magic is and how it works. And without the ability to quantify it, if people were to go after Magic users in court proceedings you are opening yourself to people making wild accusations based on things that may or may not be true. That anyone with a grudge and an athame instantly becomes prime suspect in a crime that may not be anything more than some dumbass who forgot to check his parachute lines before tossing himself out of a perfectly good airplane.

We don't live in a perfect system. Things like that are going to be pushed aside in favor of the things we can see and touch. DNA, Fingerprints, Photographs, Blood Traces...etc.

To do otherwise invites us devolving back into the days of people accusing people based on spectral evidence. You know, those happy bygone days when I can say that Widow Whitfield was the one who poisoned my cattle because I can "see" the demon on her shoulder whispering in her ear in my dreams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_evidence
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Paradisio on June 18, 2013, 12:41:16 AM
Well let me ask this.

Say I were to cast a spell that caused someone to lose their coordination when I knew them to be free-climbing a mountain. They fell off the mountain from a thousand feet up and went ker-splat on the rocks on the bottom.

How would you prove that it was me that did it and not just a bit of bad luck. After all mountain climbers fall and die all the time. California, Washington State, Colorado, Wyoming, Alaska have between 10 and 20 deaths per year on average. Splitting the difference and that's 75 deaths per year in those 5 states alone. How would you prove that a person was nudged off of a rock face due to a spell? How do you tie it to me.

Or for that matter, how do you prove that it was really a horrific accident and not me casting a spell. Say I was someone who did not like him. If they knew that I was a Wiccan and a Spell Chucker, how do you prove that I didn't fondle the goat's testicles to get him to fall off of El Capitan?

And that's the problem. There is no way at this time to quantify what Magic is and how it works. And without the ability to quantify it, if people were to go after Magic users in court proceedings you are opening yourself to people making wild accusations based on things that may or may not be true. That anyone with a grudge and an athame instantly becomes prime suspect in a crime that may not be anything more than some dumbass who forgot to check his parachute lines before tossing himself out of a perfectly good airplane.

We don't live in a perfect system. Things like that are going to be pushed aside in favor of the things we can see and touch. DNA, Fingerprints, Photographs, Blood Traces...etc.

To do otherwise invites us devolving back into the days of people accusing people based on spectral evidence. You know, those happy bygone days when I can say that Widow Whitfield was the one who poisoned my cattle because I can "see" the demon on her shoulder whispering in her ear in my dreams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_evidence
So you're argument is that spells aren't real? Why would anyone believe in them then? At least enough to make big declarative statements like using spells to kill in the first place is morally wrong(which did happen in another thread). That kind of statement is starting to seem false and meaningless based on your logic.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: crystal wolfstar on June 18, 2013, 12:54:49 AM
You'd need something other than spectral evidence, I agree. Pretty sure they outlawed that after Salem
 
So say you find the stuff used to cast the spell and you can link it to the person...like if they were seen burying a little effigy doll in a cemetary or something, and the witness told the cops, and the cops dug it up.

You'd still have to prove it actually caused the death. Otherwise it's "attempted murder by spell", something like that.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: holyfool on June 18, 2013, 01:00:16 AM
And that's the problem. There is no way at this time to quantify what Magic is and how it works.

Well, we should be working on that...I mean, metaphysical crimes  do happen...
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: crystal wolfstar on June 18, 2013, 01:03:26 AM
And that's the problem. There is no way at this time to quantify what Magic is and how it works.

Well, we should be working on that...I mean, metaphysical crimes  do happen...

I think there's military groups who have been trying to do something like that for some time now.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: holyfool on June 18, 2013, 01:08:16 AM
You'd need something other than spectral evidence, I agree. Pretty sure they outlawed that after Salem
 
So say you find the stuff used to cast the spell and you can link it to the person...like if they were seen burying a little effigy doll in a cemetary or something, and the witness told the cops, and the cops dug it up.

You'd still have to prove it actually caused the death. Otherwise it's "attempted murder by spell", something like that.
Ooh, that's a good point.
Maybe there could just be a "malevolent casting" charge if physical evidence of curse-casting is found.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Mongo on June 18, 2013, 01:13:34 AM
So you're argument is that spells aren't real? Why would anyone believe in them then? At least enough to make big declarative statements like using spells to kill in the first place is morally wrong(which did happen in another thread). That kind of statement is starting to seem false and meaningless based on your logic.

Do not put words in my mouth.

Am I arguing that spells are not real? Far from it. I'm simply saying that there is no way at this point in time to quantify what they are and how they work. It's like the universe. If we add up all the matter and dark matter we can account for only a third of the matter/energy needed for the universe to act the way that it does. There is something in the missing 2/3 of the universe that we can not identify, can not quantify, don't know it's properties. The only thing we do know is that it is making the universe act like we can observe.

Rather like Magic. There is no "magic particle" no "magic radiation" that science can currently quantify. And without such, who is to say that a person who dies of no obvious wounds or illnesses or poisons, or other situations incompatible with life was or was not killed by magic.

"Why would anyone believe in them then?" Why would astrophysicists believe in Dark Energy? We can't see it, can't measure it, can't detect it. Because it's something that explains something that is going on in the universe. Why do many believe in magic? Simply because strange things have happened as a result of using magic. Magic in our limited understanding is the only thing that best explains what happened. It may be that Magic is just another function of a scientific universe that we haven't explained yet. That there is a component that any sufficiently willed entity can tap into.

"That kind of statement is starting to seem false and meaningless based on your logic." Only in the way that you twist my logic to suit your argument. Killing someone is not a thing to take lightly. It's one of the things that you are going to have to face the consequences of doing. Even if you are justified in a self-defense situation. You have to face the police questioning, maybe a court trial to ascertain if it really was a justified killing, and you have to live with the fact that you willingly ended the life of another. They're still consequences of those actions. And that's the whole thing about life. You are warned by many sources (the Rede, Golden Rule, Bible (and other religious texts), secular sources...you name it that you must be mindful of your actions and are willing to face the consequences of those actions for good or for ill.

And frankly I would never use magic to kill someone. It's all about power and how it can corrupt. I personally have never heard of a case where someone went "mumbly-mumbly-mumbly-POOF!" and made someone fall over stone dead. And I don't think it's possible. Others may disagree but *I* limit *my* beliefs to thinking that it is not possible. And the reason is that if it were possible and could be done in such a way to kill others so no one could ever trace it to me...

Well there are a lot of people I'm not sure I could resist using it on. That's the corruption. How long before I started using it to actually kill off those who have harmed me and my family. How long before I redefine that harm to include that jerk wad that cut me off on the way to work? How long before I start using it to off people who yelled at me for no good reason? How long before I started lashing out at anyone who annoyed me?

That's why it is not a good idea to use spells to harm someone. The power could eventually corrupt. The only reason that I don't go off on a rampage of harming others is that I really don't want to face the consequences of beating the snot of all the people who aggravate the living hell out of me.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: dragonspring on June 18, 2013, 08:39:55 AM
It's all about power and how it can corrupt. I personally have never heard of a case where someone went "mumbly-mumbly-mumbly-POOF!" and made someone fall over stone dead. And I don't think it's possible.
I agree.  I have heard claims that people under psychic attack have become terminally ill, with cancer or heart disease, etc. I suspect that part of the reason these folks get so sick if their own belief that they are cursed.  Sometimes, I think the victim is grasping for some "reason" for their illness besides the vagaries of fate.  I have only heard one person claim that a death was immediately caused by witchcraft and that person is not exactly what I would call "sane".
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Man Yellow on June 18, 2013, 09:15:29 AM
The secular legal systems of America and the like don't seem to take spells seriously even though they can harm people in ways similar to weapons. Because of this if I were to cast a spell that killed someone there wouldn't be a punishment. Doesn't this then imply that the government doesn't actually punish people in ways that are just and is in itself an unjust institution. Or perhaps what it means is that laws should be reformed to institute punishments for spells. Though then the question arises how could you in a court of law prove that someone had committed a spell that harmed someone. How can you prove to the jury that it was the spell caster and not coincidence as many of these secular people nowadays seem to believe?

That was put to bed by the Salem witch trials and their aftermaths, which set precedent in common law - which our law is based on - that "spectral evidence" is disallowed.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Stormjester on June 18, 2013, 11:10:42 AM
People probably do not necessarily die if a direct death spell is cast on them. It is not that simple I think. However, if the spell intentions that the person die by some conventional means (car accident, murder, etc.) That spell may actually cause a death. Most black magick, I surmise, though, is meant to create a correspondent complex in the person under attack. This gives them energy and principles to be able to do things that benefits themselves (you go 'down' and they go 'up')

A few sensitivity issues:
1. Don't assume that the reason a person is affected by psychic attack is because they 'believe' it will harm them.
2. Mental illness might be one of the symptoms of psychic attack. Don't assume that it 'proves' they aren't.

Be Blessed!
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Man Yellow on June 18, 2013, 11:38:44 AM
People probably do not necessarily die if a direct death spell is cast on them. It is not that simple I think. However, if the spell intentions that the person die by some conventional means (car accident, murder, etc.) That spell may actually cause a death. Most black magick, I surmise, though, is meant to create a correspondent complex in the person under attack. This gives them energy and principles to be able to do things that benefits themselves (you go 'down' and they go 'up')

A few sensitivity issues:
1. Don't assume that the reason a person is affected by psychic attack is because they 'believe' it will harm them.
2. Mental illness might be one of the symptoms of psychic attack. Don't assume that it 'proves' they aren't.

Be Blessed!

"Sensitivity issues"?  Is this to imply that discussion of the possibility of either item is somehow offensive?
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Stormjester on June 18, 2013, 12:12:45 PM
People probably do not necessarily die if a direct death spell is cast on them. It is not that simple I think. However, if the spell intentions that the person die by some conventional means (car accident, murder, etc.) That spell may actually cause a death. Most black magick, I surmise, though, is meant to create a correspondent complex in the person under attack. This gives them energy and principles to be able to do things that benefits themselves (you go 'down' and they go 'up')

A few sensitivity issues:
1. Don't assume that the reason a person is affected by psychic attack is because they 'believe' it will harm them.

2. Mental illness might be one of the symptoms of psychic attack. Don't assume that it 'proves' they aren't.

Be Blessed!

"Sensitivity issues"?  Is this to imply that discussion of the possibility of either item is somehow offensive?

Certainly not. Just try to be sensitive when you assess what a person might be going through.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Man Yellow on June 18, 2013, 12:50:57 PM
Certainly not. Just try to be sensitive when you assess what a person might be going through.

Sensitivity is not one of my strong points.  I am not by nature an empathic person.

What strikes me as being counter to your first point is this...Traditional curses (such as Kurdaitcha, for example) don't seem to have any effect whatsoever on people from outside the culture that employ them.

Kurdaitcha, for example, was blamed for the death of an Aborigine by the name of Kinjika in 1953, despite life support measures lasting 96 hours (until his death) in a modern medical facility (including the use of an iron lung).  No pathologies or injuries were discovered during the postmortem investigation.

The exact same curse was employed on Australian Prime Minister John Howard in 2004.  He is alive and well to this day.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Starbrightmoon on June 18, 2013, 02:07:52 PM
I've had someone explain to me why a curse wouldn't work on someone that doesn't believe in it.
The reasoning was that person had unconsciously put up a strong protective barrier (by their not believing, I assume). Those that believe have a significantly weaker barrier that allows the curse to work.

Still sounds like a mind trick to me either way. Like the placebo effect, only with dieing instead of healing.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Man Yellow on June 18, 2013, 02:30:54 PM
I've had someone explain to me why a curse wouldn't work on someone that doesn't believe in it.
The reasoning was that person had unconsciously put up a strong protective barrier (by their not believing, I assume). Those that believe have a significantly weaker barrier that allows the curse to work.

Still sounds like a mind trick to me either way. Like the placebo effect, only with dieing instead of healing.

This is possible, though Occam's Razor would imply the reverse.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: WillowWisp on June 18, 2013, 02:39:15 PM
Polygraph tests aren't admissible evidence in most American courts of law. The evidence tying a person to a magical crime would be even more ephemeral, and thus even less acceptable. And what would prevent the use of further spells to obfuscate the evidence?

Earthly courts cannot adjudicate magical laws.

In this way, we see that the world is unjust.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Stormjester on June 18, 2013, 02:42:42 PM
The problem arises in Christian thought, and Christian counseling. Telling a person that they are suffering because they don't "enough faith" can be psychologically disastrous, and seems to reflect a very immature approach to the problem of suffering theologically. BTW, Man Yellow, it seems from your post that you have a strong familiarity with Magick. What is your background?

Be Blessed!
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Man Yellow on June 18, 2013, 03:35:03 PM
The problem arises in Christian thought, and Christian counseling. Telling a person that they are suffering because they don't "enough faith" can be psychologically disastrous, and seems to reflect a very immature approach to the problem of suffering theologically. BTW, Man Yellow, it seems from your post that you have a strong familiarity with Magick. What is your background?

Be Blessed!

I have no background with magick (what's the k for?) whatsoever.  I do, however, have an enormous capacity for remembering scraps of information, such as the Kurdaitcha business.  I am merely applying logic to the situation; all systems which reflect the actual state of the universe must - by definition - operate under the same rules as the universe itself.  Therefore, any belief system must have an underpinning of logic.  "Sympathetic magic" is a prime example of a belief system which appeals to the rules of the universe at large, for example.

Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Stormjester on June 18, 2013, 05:02:44 PM
Polygraph tests aren't admissible evidence in most American courts of law. The evidence tying a person to a magical crime would be even more ephemeral, and thus even less acceptable. And what would prevent the use of further spells to obfuscate the evidence?

Earthly courts cannot adjudicate magical laws.

In this way, we see that the world is unjust.

Universal negatives cannot be proven.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Claude on June 19, 2013, 01:15:52 AM
Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Mongo on June 19, 2013, 01:35:40 AM
Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: crystal wolfstar on June 19, 2013, 08:16:44 AM
Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.

Who wants that? Most of the posts I've seen have been in agreement that it would be impossible to implement fairly.

And how do you define "harm through spellwork"? Sickness and death, sure, but there's a big grey area. What if you used magic to get a particular job and it worked, but somebody else needed the job worse? What if they became homeless because they didn't get it? What about court case magic, say, in a divorce settlement?

"Anything you do is going to be evil to somebody."
- Joseph Campbell
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Man Yellow on June 19, 2013, 11:32:04 AM
Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.

So, basically, back to Salem.

My crops failed.  Find the witch.

My son has a fever.  Find the witch.

My investment portfolio failed.  Find the witch.

Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: crystal wolfstar on June 19, 2013, 02:08:27 PM
Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.

So, basically, back to Salem.

My crops failed.  Find the witch.

My son has a fever.  Find the witch.

My investment portfolio failed.  Find the witch.

Seems ironic on a pagan board, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Golden Slumber on June 19, 2013, 02:23:56 PM
Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.

So, basically, back to Salem.

My crops failed.  Find the witch.

My son has a fever.  Find the witch.

My investment portfolio failed.  Find the witch.

HI Man Yellow!

I think what Mongo was tryin to say was that it's better to cause harm through spiritual means than physical means. The emotional release is really important to a lot of beliefts. Even Satanism said that its good to get the emotions out before they destroy you! This way, you won't do any real harm but you will feel better!

Please correct me if I got you wrong Mongo!
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: holyfool on June 19, 2013, 04:51:57 PM
I think what Mongo was tryin to say was that it's better to cause harm through spiritual means than physical means.
Really? That's a pretty left-hand path sort of think.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Golden Slumber on June 19, 2013, 04:54:18 PM
HI!

I probably got him wrong! I'll let him answer instead! Probably get more sense!
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Mongo on June 19, 2013, 05:46:30 PM
I think what Mongo was tryin to say was that it's better to cause harm through spiritual means than physical means. The emotional release is really important to a lot of beliefts. Even Satanism said that its good to get the emotions out before they destroy you! This way, you won't do any real harm but you will feel better!

Please correct me if I got you wrong Mongo!

Dead wrong...sorry. :rolleye:

Actually the point I'm trying to make is that by trying to find a way to seek punishment for spell casters is a risky proposition since once that cat is out of the bag...where does it stop? How long before someone slips and breaks an arm walking on the icy sidewalk they couldn't be arsed to shovel and think "Gee! Mongo is a wiccan and if I can sue him I can get some phat cash!".

All it would take is convincing a jury that I'm holding a grudge against them and that I'm packing enough magical stuff to back up that grudge.

How could I defend against that in a court of law? Once that door opens...it's Salem all over again.

Besides I have other ways of dealing with the negativity. I have a ritual that works wonders (posted on this forum) and well...I play a lot of MEdal of Honor and imagine the people that have annoyed me are the nazi's I'm shooting.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Crystal Dragon on June 19, 2013, 05:51:20 PM
Besides I have other ways of dealing with the negativity. I have a ritual that works wonders (posted on this forum) and well...I play a lot of MEdal of Honor and imagine the people that have annoyed me are the nazi's I'm shooting.

 :rotflmao:

I had friend once who had a significant commute to work.  He once told me that when the boss ticked him off he'd imagine that bossman was in the car in front of him on the highway and that he had lasers on his car ... great stress reliever! :D
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Golden Slumber on June 19, 2013, 05:56:45 PM
I think what Mongo was tryin to say was that it's better to cause harm through spiritual means than physical means. The emotional release is really important to a lot of beliefts. Even Satanism said that its good to get the emotions out before they destroy you! This way, you won't do any real harm but you will feel better!

Please correct me if I got you wrong Mongo!

Dead wrong...sorry. :rolleye:

Actually the point I'm trying to make is that by trying to find a way to seek punishment for spell casters is a risky proposition since once that cat is out of the bag...where does it stop? How long before someone slips and breaks an arm walking on the icy sidewalk they couldn't be arsed to shovel and think "Gee! Mongo is a wiccan and if I can sue him I can get some phat cash!".

All it would take is convincing a jury that I'm holding a grudge against them and that I'm packing enough magical stuff to back up that grudge.

How could I defend against that in a court of law? Once that door opens...it's Salem all over again.

Besides I have other ways of dealing with the negativity. I have a ritual that works wonders (posted on this forum) and well...I play a lot of MEdal of Honor and imagine the people that have annoyed me are the nazi's I'm shooting.

HI!

Thanks for correcting me! Would a court really think that now? I thought everywhere had got rid of those kinds of laws!
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Mongo on June 19, 2013, 09:36:21 PM
Would a court really think that now? I thought everywhere had got rid of those kinds of laws!

Here in the United States or any modern, civilized nation? Not likely. But that's what the Original Poster was talking about. How people who do cast magic for ill should be punished in the court of law. Some were saying that we should and I was saying that since there is no scientific way to quantify magic, that to do so would risk a revisitation of the Salem Witch Trials.

And yes, here in the 21st century that sort of thing is still happening in the third-world nations of the Middle East and Africa. And it's pretty much as I said. Someone wants to off someone so they claim that they can't get Mr. Fiddles to perform anymore (impotence) and that their neighbor is the one who cast the spell.

Neighbor is tried, convicted on the flimsiest of evidence and is killed...usually brutally. 
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: bearusgregoria on December 15, 2013, 12:16:38 PM
i personally agree that the justice system is flawed but if there were a place that had a panel of some of the best witches/pagans in the country perhaps the world on it and the attacker were to go in front of the panel to be judged by them first to see if there is any wrong doing and inspect the victim to see if such an attack took place then have the justice system take it from there unless we were granted our own justice system that only witches can employ. no matter the case of course our justice system will think you crazy or something because there is no tangible proof other than hearsay to say that it even occured at all when both the attacker and victim kno precisely what happened. thats my point....

many blessings
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: anubisa on December 15, 2013, 03:44:52 PM
I agree that the legal and spiritual realms are best kept separate. However, if a spellcaster was to cast a killing spell then that would turn back on them. Karma would somehow make sure that person get's what they deserve.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Summerhawk on December 15, 2013, 09:04:22 PM
I agree that the legal and spiritual realms are best kept separate. However, if a spellcaster was to cast a killing spell then that would turn back on them. Karma would somehow make sure that person get's what they deserve.

Karma will have it's way.
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: thegeekwitch on December 17, 2013, 01:10:45 PM
I'm a little amused and a little concerned by this whole conversation (I've been up since 4:00am so maybe I'm starting to get delirious though).

My personal thoughts on the matter are that if you were to kill someone by magical means, karmic law would kick your ass well and truly before any justice system would or could. 

I think the OP's question is interesting but at the same time the continuing thread was unnecessary because it was answered within the first 2-3 replies - inviting the legal system to allow the punishment of spellcasters is Salem and other historic witchhunts all over again.  To allow the punishment of someone who supposedly cast a spell of death upon someone, you would have to allow punishment of all spellcasting which has an unwarranted negative affect on another person - I have no issue with people being punished for using such spells (and I repeat, the Universe would take care of that); the problem lies as to where the evidence is and how exactly would you prove that event took place at all? 

As far as the belief in magic or if magic even works, that doesn't even really matter.  If I do a spell and it works for me, but you don't see the results yourself, does that mean the spell isn't real?  Like Mongo said, there's no measuring stick (yet) for magic or some forms of energy; we can't see, hold, hear or feel magic in a scientific sense. Until we can, there's no proof that it does or doesn't exist (a bit like deity, really).  Until there's tangible, measurable proof, you can't use that against someone in a court of law.

And now I'm going back to bed...  :yawn: :readyforbed:
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: Ghost Wolf on December 17, 2013, 06:11:05 PM
I'm a little amused and a little concerned by this whole conversation (I've been up since 4:00am so maybe I'm starting to get delirious though).

Most of the comments came from the rash of Buttheads who made a coordinated assault upon the site a while back. They were quickly found out.

*edited to change the name of the buttheads
Title: Re: Punishment for Spells
Post by: thegeekwitch on December 17, 2013, 09:11:22 PM
I'm a little amused and a little concerned by this whole conversation (I've been up since 4:00am so maybe I'm starting to get delirious though).

Most of the comments came from the rash of Buttheads who made a coordinated assault upon the site a while back. They were quickly found out.

Gah I didn't even look at the dates on the posts.  Go me and my baby brain :hairpull:  I'll just be over here...  :whistle: