Pagan Journeys
General Topics => General Chat => Topic started by: crystal wolfstar on June 17, 2013, 07:34:08 PM
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I think it all comes down to whether a person is going to be responsible for their actions. Some people think that they can escape consequences, like the Rule of Three or karma.
Karma is very real, when you view it through the Eastern lens of cause and effect. I don't have evidence of recording angels and the like, though.
I tend to agree with Doreen Valiente that the Rule of Three doesn't add up (Your mileage may vary, etc.)
http://www.earthspirit.com/fireheart/fhdv1.html
FH: Maybe it's karma or the threefold return, and they're saying, "We'll give it to her one way or the other."
DV: I don't believe this stuff about the threefold return, you know. I've always been very skeptical about that, but I'm a lot more skeptical than I used to be. The older I get, the more skeptical I get. I don't believe in all sorts of things that I used to believe in.
FH: Where do you think the threefold idea came from?
DV: I think old Gerald cooked it up in one of his rituals, and people took it terribly literally. Personally, I've always been skeptical about it because it doesn't seem to me to make sense. I don't see why there has to be one special law of karma for Witches and a different one for everybody else. I don't buy that. But there's an awful lot of things I don't buy.
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I think it all comes down to whether a person is going to be responsible for their actions. Some people think that they can escape consequences, like the Rule of Three or karma.
Karma is very real, when you view it through the Eastern lens of cause and effect. I don't have evidence of recording angels and the like, though.
I tend to agree with Doreen Valiente that the Rule of Three doesn't add up (Your mileage may vary, etc.)
http://www.earthspirit.com/fireheart/fhdv1.html
FH: Maybe it's karma or the threefold return, and they're saying, "We'll give it to her one way or the other."
DV: I don't believe this stuff about the threefold return, you know. I've always been very skeptical about that, but I'm a lot more skeptical than I used to be. The older I get, the more skeptical I get. I don't believe in all sorts of things that I used to believe in.
FH: Where do you think the threefold idea came from?
DV: I think old Gerald cooked it up in one of his rituals, and people took it terribly literally. Personally, I've always been skeptical about it because it doesn't seem to me to make sense. I don't see why there has to be one special law of karma for Witches and a different one for everybody else. I don't buy that. But there's an awful lot of things I don't buy.
I like that.
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Hmm. Perhaps we have something in common. I work with energy savings guarantee projects all the time.
I work with yanking natural gas out of rock substrate. I'm not actually on the production side, though.
I want to apologize if I gave the impression that the thread was shutdown. For future reference, closed threads are locked by the staff. In regards to Dick Cheney, want to point out that we have a policy of no political discussions on this board. There are a wide range of political stances represented here and political discussions are better left to political boards.
Okay. I wasn't presenting it as a political point. Politics are the stupidest thing mankind ever invented.
I was presenting it as an example of karma not functioning. Unless karma means he gets reincarnated as a dung beetle or a mime or something. Not because he is on one side or the other, the sides are meaningless...But rather on the merits of his behavior as CEO of Halliburton, and then the whole shooting his friend in the face with a shotgun while "hunting" staked-down birds.
Very true.
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I figure karma pretty much works, although I have heard that magicians think they can mitigate it, or throw theirs onto others. Sounds a lot like black magic to me..and I figure it doesn't really work.
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I figure karma pretty much works, although I have heard that magicians think they can mitigate it, or throw theirs onto others. Sounds a lot like black magic to me..and I figure it doesn't really work.
I am too ignorant to say whether or not it works. I can say that I have seen remarkably little evidence of it.
Example: Lloyd Blankfein. If Karma worked, he'd be a second-assistant toilet scrubber in Bhopal. But he is still the CEO of Goldman-Sachs, 6 years after he finished raping the entire world.
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Okay. I wasn't presenting it as a political point. Politics are the stupidest thing mankind ever invented.
I was presenting it as an example of karma not functioning. Unless karma means he gets reincarnated as a dung beetle or a mime or something. Not because he is on one side or the other, the sides are meaningless...But rather on the merits of his behavior as CEO of Halliburton, and then the whole shooting his friend in the face with a shotgun while "hunting" staked-down birds.
Cool, I just didn't want to go down that road. Some people believe that karma can carry through many lifetimes, that it affects their descendants, or that a soul has to atone for their karma in purgatory before being reborn, or that it becomes undead and roams the wasteland forever. There are many different beliefs on how karma works. It is not something that can be observed or proven, but is a matter of faith.
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Karma - to me, and this is only my admittedly-ignorant opinion - seems to be a way to excuse the universe for allowing evil people to do rotten things, and to excuse ourselves for not doing something about it.
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Cool, I just didn't want to go down that road. Some people believe that karma can carry through many lifetimes, that it affects their descendants, or that a soul has to atone for their karma in purgatory before being reborn, or that it becomes undead and roams the wasteland forever. There are many different beliefs on how karma works. It is not something that can be observed or proven, but is a matter of faith.
I can understand the afterlife version of karma. Really Awful Things Await Bad People and all that.
I'd just be happier if the universe took care of some of the jerks now, you know? Of course, I am old enough to understand that the universe was not set up for my convenience.
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You are certainly entitled to that belief. I might have said the same thing 20 years ago when I was bitter about a terrible injustice in my own life. My beliefs have changed a lot since then - I guess you could say I actually have beliefs. :D
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You are certainly entitled to that belief. I might have said the same thing 20 years ago when I was bitter about a terrible injustice in my own life. My beliefs have changed a lot since then - I guess you could say I actually have beliefs. :D
I am lacking in beliefs. That is why I am here; my old beliefs no longer satisfy my questions about things. I have been reading for hours, over the last 2-3 days. Not sure what the hell's going on, yet. I need to read more.
Question: Asutru. There is apparently some kind of split between "folkists" and "universalists", and one side or the other tends to be a White Nationalist thing. I hit wikipedia, for all the good it did me, and it mentioned the split, but not WHICH side was the WN side. Both sides claim to renounce racism. I can't be bothered with racism, it is an irrelevance. So which is which? I do not wish to spend a lot of time reading up one side or the other, only to find that I've spent a lot of time reading something that will be of no use to me. Semantics suggests that "folkist" would be the WN crowd, but that is an assumption, and we know what assumptions are the mother of.
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Most Folkish groups believe that Asatru is a Northern European religion and may limit membership to those with that ancestry. There is a lot of emphasis on the Ancestors and traditionalism in Folkish Asatru. Not all Folkish people are racists, although there are some who might think so based on the exclusiveness. Based on what you have said, I think you would be better off looking at Universalists - you might want to try The Troth. However, from what I can tell, both groups follow pretty much the same ritual formats and obviously use the same lore. It might be advantageous to see different viewpoints if it is something interesting to you.
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Most Folkish groups believe that Asatru is a Northern European religion and may limit membership to those with that ancestry. There is a lot of emphasis on the Ancestors and traditionalism in Folkish Asatru. Not all Folkish people are racists, although there are some who might think so based on the exclusiveness. Based on what you have said, I think you would be better off looking at Universalists - you might want to try The Troth. However, from what I can tell, both groups follow pretty much the same ritual formats and obviously use the same lore. It might be advantageous to see different viewpoints if it is something interesting to you.
Thank you very much. You have saved me a lot of effort. (And to be clear, I did say "white nationalist", because there is no evidence of "white supremacy", which is a slightly different kettle of fish. I guess the correct term would be "white-centric", since they aren't nationalists).
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Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?
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Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?
I am not fond of Dawkins, to be perfectly honest, though he did some interesting neurology work (memes, to be precise, he invented the term), before he became an evangelist.
Atheism requires every bit as much faith as religion (you can't prove a negative), and has no upside.
Also, the atheists I've met have tended to be shrill, and very insulting to people who do believe in a higher power. I find them offensive.
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Actually, some Pagans are atheists, supposedly.
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Karma - to me, and this is only my admittedly-ignorant opinion - seems to be a way to excuse the universe for allowing evil people to do rotten things, and to excuse ourselves for not doing something about it.
Maybe.
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Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?
Or, if you're up for a quiz, Religious Tolerance has link to a neat "Belief System Selector" quiz that hits pretty close. When I started poking around pagan paths I used that to narrow my search. ;)
http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/
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Actually, some Pagans are atheists, supposedly.
I haven't yet had one call me a "faith-fool".
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Karma - to me, and this is only my admittedly-ignorant opinion - seems to be a way to excuse the universe for allowing evil people to do rotten things, and to excuse ourselves for not doing something about it.
Maybe.
Perhaps.
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Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?
Or, if you're up for a quiz, Religious Tolerance has link to a neat "Belief System Selector" quiz that hits pretty close. When I started poking around pagan paths I used that to narrow my search. ;)
http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/
Okay, thanks.
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1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Mainline - Liberal Christian Protestants (86%)
3. Liberal Quakers - Religious Society of Friends (86%)
4. Secular Humanism (81%)
5. Reform Judaism (79%)
6. Theravada Buddhism (69%)
7. Non-theist (64%)
8. Mahayana Buddhism (61%)
9. Orthodox Quaker - Religious Society of Friends (61%)
10. Neo-Pagan (60%)
11. New Thought (60%)
12. Taoism (60%)
I think we can leave the Quakers out. My hypocrisy goes only so far.
Unitarian Universalists are too damn wishy washy. Mainline Christianity is what I left. Judaism is too close to Christianity.
I'm not interested in secular humanism.
So:
6. Theravada Buddhism (69%)
7. Non-theist (64%)
8. Mahayana Buddhism (61%)
10. Neo-Pagan (60%)
11. New Thought (60%)
12. Taoism (60%)
Can't be a Buddhist (same reason as Quaker).
So:
10. Neo-Pagan (60%)
11. New Thought (60%)
12. Taoism (60%)
Taoism is a no-go. Middle of the road is for people who are afraid of being awesome.
So.
I need to look up New Thought. Or it's neo-paganism.
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Nope. Not new thought. Sickness is not in the mind, and the mind cannot defeat a bacteria.
Neo-paganism it is.
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Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?
Or, if you're up for a quiz, Religious Tolerance has link to a neat "Belief System Selector" quiz that hits pretty close. When I started poking around pagan paths I used that to narrow my search. ;)
http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/
Every time I take that test, I get something different. This week I'm a Taoist.
I think it's because there's no options for a lot of things, so I just tick something off. It jumps from "There is definitely an afterlife" to "No afterlife", for instance. No option for "I don't know, I'm not dead yet", lol.
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I'm wondering what you mean by "my hypocrisy only goes so far" in your dismissal of Liberal Quakers?
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I'm wondering what you mean by "my hypocrisy only goes so far" in your dismissal of Liberal Quakers?
I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.
The Quakers are good people. I wish more people were like them. I am not like them.
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Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?
Or, if you're up for a quiz, Religious Tolerance has link to a neat "Belief System Selector" quiz that hits pretty close. When I started poking around pagan paths I used that to narrow my search. ;)
http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/
This is the first time I've taken one of these quizzes and Satanism wasn't in the top 3 (heck it wasn't even listed!)
Looks like either I've changed over the years or the quizzes are getting better.
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I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.
The Quakers are good people. I wish more people were like them. I am not like them.
Neo-Paganism is, by nature, a peaceful religion. Harm None and all that. So I don't see how it gets you anywhere. This entire exercise appears to be one of self-deception.
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I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.
The Quakers are good people. I wish more people were like them. I am not like them.
Neo-Paganism is, by nature, a peaceful religion. Harm None and all that. So I don't see how it gets you anywhere. This entire exercise appears to be one of self-deception.
Balls. I bet some of those Norse guys still like to get rowdy.
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Hmmm...
Zen and/or Shinto.
Hinduism?
Requires more reading.
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I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.
The Quakers are good people. I wish more people were like them. I am not like them.
Neo-Paganism is, by nature, a peaceful religion. Harm None and all that. So I don't see how it gets you anywhere. This entire exercise appears to be one of self-deception.
Balls. I bet some of those Norse guys still like to get rowdy.
Ah, but, you see, we are not "pagans."
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I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.
The Quakers are good people. I wish more people were like them. I am not like them.
Neo-Paganism is, by nature, a peaceful religion. Harm None and all that. So I don't see how it gets you anywhere. This entire exercise appears to be one of self-deception.
Balls. I bet some of those Norse guys still like to get rowdy.
Ah, but, you see, we are not "pagans."
Depends on who defines the term. By my prior belief system, everyone's a Pagan unless they're some kind of Christian sect.
You'll forgive my ignorance when it comes to terminology. This is all very new to me.
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I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.
The Quakers are good people. I wish more people were like them. I am not like them.
Neo-Paganism is, by nature, a peaceful religion. Harm None and all that. So I don't see how it gets you anywhere. This entire exercise appears to be one of self-deception.
Balls. I bet some of those Norse guys still like to get rowdy.
Ah, but, you see, we are not "pagans."
Depends on who defines the term. By my prior belief system, everyone's a Pagan unless they're some kind of Christian sect.
You'll forgive my ignorance when it comes to terminology. This is all very new to me.
The rede only applies to Wiccans. The rest of pagan kind couldn't care less. In my experience.
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I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.
The Quakers are good people. I wish more people were like them. I am not like them.
Neo-Paganism is, by nature, a peaceful religion. Harm None and all that. So I don't see how it gets you anywhere. This entire exercise appears to be one of self-deception.
Balls. I bet some of those Norse guys still like to get rowdy.
Ah, but, you see, we are not "pagans."
Depends on who defines the term. By my prior belief system, everyone's a Pagan unless they're some kind of Christian sect.
You'll forgive my ignorance when it comes to terminology. This is all very new to me.
The rede only applies to Wiccans. The rest of pagan kind couldn't care less. In my experience.
Oh, good. Hinduism was starting to look like my only option, and it's really complicated. It's a fantastic read, though. All heroes and demons fighting, and then the hero gets the girl. Or sometimes the guy, because a surprising number of their heroes were female. Which is sort of refreshing when you reflect on the usual place of women in the Christian bible.
Jezebel comes to mind. She was killed for staying faithful to her husband, so obviously her name is now a term for a prostitute or loose woman.
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I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.
The Quakers are good people. I wish more people were like them. I am not like them.
Neo-Paganism is, by nature, a peaceful religion. Harm None and all that. So I don't see how it gets you anywhere. This entire exercise appears to be one of self-deception.
Balls. I bet some of those Norse guys still like to get rowdy.
Ah, but, you see, we are not "pagans."
Depends on who defines the term. By my prior belief system, everyone's a Pagan unless they're some kind of Christian sect.
You'll forgive my ignorance when it comes to terminology. This is all very new to me.
The rede only applies to Wiccans. The rest of pagan kind couldn't care less. In my experience.
Oh, good. Hinduism was starting to look like my only option, and it's really complicated. It's a fantastic read, though. All heroes and demons fighting, and then the hero gets the girl. Or sometimes the guy, because a surprising number of their heroes were female. Which is sort of refreshing when you reflect on the usual place of women in the Christian bible.
Jezebel comes to mind. She was killed for staying faithful to her husband, so obviously her name is now a term for a prostitute or loose woman.
Yeah, the Bible is full of whack-noodle stuff like that. I feel it can be summed up in one line. "Do this because we say so, but odds are we're going to kill you anyway and then lie about why." It's sort of an analogous to governments, I think, in my darker moments.
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It creeps me out when someone says, I'll pray for you.
...My response might be, "Ill pray for you too. Guess which god."
Personally, I wouldn't say that to someone nice enough to offer prayer in a crisis.
OTOH, it's PERFECT for LDS types. :crazylaugh:
Are you suggesting that individuals who belong to LDS aren't capable of being kind? I have a number of friends in LDS and have never had any of them offer to pray for me ... in fact, they are more accepting of my beliefs than friends who are Christian.
I have known some very kind LDS members, my maternal grandparents among them. And Mormons for Marriage Equality turned up in force at Pride this weekend.
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Most Folkish groups believe that Asatru is a Northern European religion and may limit membership to those with that ancestry. There is a lot of emphasis on the Ancestors and traditionalism in Folkish Asatru. Not all Folkish people are racists, although there are some who might think so based on the exclusiveness. Based on what you have said, I think you would be better off looking at Universalists - you might want to try The Troth. However, from what I can tell, both groups follow pretty much the same ritual formats and obviously use the same lore. It might be advantageous to see different viewpoints if it is something interesting to you.
I don't know much about Asatru, despite having a close Heathen friend. However, I do want to say that I can understand ancestor-based religions actually calling for followers to have that ancestry... it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, from that perspective, to venerate someone else's ancestors, although even that has some obvious exceptions, like marriage and adoption.
Then again, it's easy for me to say because I have ancestors from three continents.
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I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.
The Quakers are good people. I wish more people were like them. I am not like them.
Neo-Paganism is, by nature, a peaceful religion. Harm None and all that. So I don't see how it gets you anywhere. This entire exercise appears to be one of self-deception.
Balls. I bet some of those Norse guys still like to get rowdy.
Ah, but, you see, we are not "pagans."
Asatru are reconstructionist Heathens and are not Neopagans. As you pointed out above, inclusion in the general umbrella of paganism depends on your definition of paganism. The Asatru men that I know (including my husband GW) are pretty serious about defending their kindred, and quite a few of them are ex-military. I hear that some groups might get rowdy with excessive consumption of alchohol and such, but our family focused group is pretty tame especially when there are children there.