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Author Topic: #1 law harm no one  (Read 3062 times)

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syan

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#1 law harm no one
« on: February 06, 2012, 10:41:29 AM »

I'm sure this has probably been discussed before but If the first law of Wicca is to harm no one then do all Wiccans need to be Vegan. Even milk cows are subjected to some cruelty. also a lot of cheese is made with bacterial culture but there are still a lot made with rennet the liquid from sheep stomachs. I've read in my resources to never use meat on your alter. In that case I am assuming the God and Goddess do not consume meat. You can see my confusion. I know what it is to be both vegetarian and Vegan. My daughter is vegetarian and my son is Vegan. It is a very strict and difficult path. I would like to know your thoughts.
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Ghost Wolf

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 10:44:53 AM »

Wrong. You misunderstand the Rede through a literal interpretation colored by modern sensibilities. Life feeds on life. In nature, animals feed on other animals, insects on other insects, bacteria on other bacteria. That is the way The God and Goddess meant things to be. Your body requires certain enzymes and proteins that you need from meat. Your mouth contains teeth for both tearing meat and chewing nuts, fruits and vegetables. By not consuming meat, you are actually going against nature!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 10:53:35 AM by Ghost Wolf »
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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 10:56:46 AM »

It is beyond impossible to live and do no harm whatsoever.  Both in large and in small ways.  The rede is a suggestion and a guide to help us to make the determination for ourselves what harm is acceptable and what is not.  Becoming vegetarian or vegan is a personal choice that entirely independent.
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Ghost Wolf

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 10:59:14 AM »

Lets see what the Rede actually says:



          Bide ye Wiccan laws ye must,
          in perfect love and perfect trust
               Live ye must and let to live,
               fairly take and fairly give
          Form the circle thrice about,
          to keep unwelcome spirits out
               To bind the spell well every time,
               let the spell be spake in rhyme
          Soft of eye and light of touch,
          speak ye little, listen much
               Deosil go by the waxing moon,
               sing and dance the Wiccan rune
          Widdershins go by the waning moon,
          chanting out the baleful tune
               When the Lady's moon is new,
               kiss the hand to her times two
          When the moon rides at Her peak,
          then the heart's desire seek
               Heed the north wind's mighty gale,
               lock the door and trim the sail
          When the wind comes from the south,
          love will kiss kiss thee on the mouth
               When the wind blows from the west,
               departed souls will have no rest
          When the wind blows from the east,
          expect the new and set the feast
               Nine woods in the cauldron go,
               burn them quick and burn them slow
          Elder be the Lady's tree,
          burn it not or cursed you'll be
               When the wheel begins to turn,
               soon the Beltain fires will burn
          When the wheel has turned to Yule,
          light the log the Horned One rules
               Heed ye flower, bush and tree,
               by the Lady blessed be
          Where the rippling waters flow,
          cast a stone and the truth you'll know
               When you have and hold a need,
               hearken not to others' greed
          With a fool no season spend,
          nor be counted as his friend
               Merry meet and merry part,
               bright the cheeks and warm the heart
          Mind the threefold law ye should,
          three times bad and three times good
               When misfortune is anow,
               wear the star upon thy brow
          True in love you must ever be,
          lest thy love be false to thee
               These eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill,
               An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye   Will
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Tirya

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 11:00:17 AM »

I'm sure you'll get more replies on this from folks, but remember that the Rede says "An it harm none, do as ye will". First, "Rede" means "advice or counsel", not "law". Second, as GW points out, our bodies are biologically created to extract necessary nutrients from meat, from our teeth to our digestive tract, so unless one is very aware of wht is missing and supplements correctly, a strict vegan diet can  actually harm an individual...which would go against the Rede. Third, regarding the Lord and Lady and meat, my patron deities are carnivores (Bastet, Anpu, Upuat - cat anf two jackals), as is one of my spirit guides (Coyote), so for me personally, being vegan to honor my deities would be sort of counter-intuitive. :) Bear in mind that I am not Wiccan, but my spirituality does draw strongly from the Wiccn path.
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Crystal Dragon

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 11:17:03 AM »

If one were to take the Rede literally then one should not harm plants or other living things either ... not harming certain bacteria will certainly kill a person. ;)

Read the entire Rede that GW posted (not just the last stanza that everyone likes to throw around).  It is a suggestion on how to live one's life in tune with Nature and the Wheel.  It is not a statement about pacifism or what to eat as some like to claim.
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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 11:42:32 AM »

I'm not Wiccan but I agree with the others that there's no specific prohibition against eating meat in the Rede. However, I think if a Wiccan feels that by their personal choice not to eat meat, they are living more in line with their own interpretation of what the Rede and Harm None means to them, there is nothing wrong with that.

In rereading the Rede, I find the line before the last line can give a clue as to what the others meant by Harm None Do What Ye Will.
               These eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill,
               An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye   Will

"These eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill" seems to say that by following the other advice listed in the Rede such as abiding Wiccan laws, live and let live, listen more than you speak, observing and honoring the Wheel of the Year, minding the threefold law and being faithful to your love, etc, one will not be harming others.  One might interpret "Do what ye will" to mean these things should be considered in the practice of magic, as the witch uses his/her will to make magic happen. Taken out of context, as it often is, it becomes a bit of a philosophical conundrum that leads many to think they must be like Jainists, and not harm any living thing.
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diniesaur

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 12:45:31 PM »

I'm strongly against vegetarianism if it's practiced for moral reasons. Do you know why?

It's discriminatory against plants. You're hurting them if you do that. You have to come to the realization that you cannot survive without hurting things! Look at your immune system. It murders countless bacteria and protists every day. No one can survive without killing.

I'm sorry. I feel very strongly about this. It makes me very frustrated when people discount the individuality of non-animals.
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agd_dga

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 01:08:23 PM »

Very true diniesaur, a lot of people forget that plants are living beings, just because they don't act like animals and can't scream in pain or bleed(as in red blood) like a animal, people connect animals to humans that they feel as we feel and forget about plants.
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agd_dga

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 01:10:18 PM »

I actually only eat chicken, turkey, bacon, and ham, but it is a texture and taste thing with me with the other meats.

But to each their own.  Funny my brother-in-law is a meat eater, not eating many fruits and vegetables and my sister is more of a vegetarian.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 01:14:40 PM by agd_dga »
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Tirya

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 01:17:09 PM »

I'm a full-on meat eater (and considering the issues I'm having with low iron, I should eat more), but I'm trying to make better choices about the animal products I choose. This spring I want to find a local source for eggs, because I don't totally trust the definition of "cage-free" and "grain fed" at the supermarket. The next challenge will be finding better red meat sources, and that may be difficult.
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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 01:31:33 PM »

Tir, look around you locally and see if there are any beef farms around you that sell to individuals.  My middle child has a friend whose family raises beef and they will sell differing amounts based on need, though I think the minimum is a 1/4 of a cow at a time.  The last batch we got was from an area around my grandparents and while it is definitely good, I'm not thrilled with the fat content on the ground portion and the fact that we had to go nearly 3 hours away to get it.  We will be going with the friend's family when we are ready to get more.  Some of your local farmers will also offer eggs at various times throughout the year. Finding any CSAs in your area may be the place to start.
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earthmuffin

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 01:41:41 PM »

Very true diniesaur, a lot of people forget that plants are living beings, just because they don't act like animals and can't scream in pain or bleed(as in red blood) like a animal, people connect animals to humans that they feel as we feel and forget about plants.

Imagine being an animist. Then you need to consider your effect on all things, not just the living.  :whistle:
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Eternal Seeker

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 02:51:18 PM »


I AM an animist, and I DO consider my actions on all things. On the upside, it eliminates casual vandalism.

peace,
ES
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earthmuffin

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 04:02:38 PM »


I AM an animist, and I DO consider my actions on all things. On the upside, it eliminates casual vandalism.

peace,
ES


 I do also, ES, or at least I try. It's definitely not for everyone.
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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 09:42:42 PM »

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 10:00:32 PM »

 :rotflmao:
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syan

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 10:41:46 PM »

Thank you very much for your insight in this. You have answered my question. I had not intended this to be a debate for or against vegetarianism. As I stated before my son and daughter are very much a part of that way of life. Their diet is very carefully considered and they are very healthy. I am not a vegetarian but I eat very little meat and follow mostly a vegetarian diet. It has improved my health as I get older. All things in moderation is my motto.  I simply wanted to know what the rule of thumb was in the Wiccan faith. Actually I believe scientists have proven that when cut, plants emit a sound above our hearing range very much like a scream.  Perhaps this is why you show respect to all the things you eat including plants and you pay homage to both plants and animals when you sit down to a meal.
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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 11:09:00 PM »

All things in moderation is my motto.
Mine too.  :D

I simply wanted to know what the rule of thumb was in the Wiccan faith. Actually I believe scientists have proven that when cut, plants emit a sound above our hearing range very much like a scream. Perhaps this is why you show respect to all the things you eat including plants and you pay homage to both plants and animals when you sit down to a meal.

One very good reason at least, IMO.
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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 06:03:45 AM »

We lose sight sometimes of the fact that all things are an exchange and something must die that we may live. I think that is one of the things I like about the acceptance of nature in paganism in that it recognizes that interplay of all things even in the food we eat.
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Ghost Wolf

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Re: #1 law harm no one
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 07:47:22 AM »

:yeahthat:
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