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Author Topic: Personal Objects Used in Spells  (Read 33529 times)

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Claude

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Personal Objects Used in Spells
« on: April 21, 2013, 09:52:39 PM »

I have no idea where to place this...

Anyways I was wondering what you guys thought about using cellphone numbers or personal emails in spells in place of things like hair or strips of clothing. They are unique to the individual but at the same time they don't seem to be that personal. So what do you guys think?
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Tirya

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 10:19:00 PM »

Considering that I still get calls for someone else on the cell phone number that I've had for six years, I would not consider a cell number "personal".

As far as email address, I don't know that you need to go that far - couldn't the person's name work just as easily?
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Claude

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 11:34:11 PM »

If I knew their full names I would. I just don't feel like first and last are enough. It may just be me but I've had no luck without a full name.
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Crystal Dragon

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 02:44:11 AM »

So, if you can't get full names one would have to assume you aren't doing a spell for them.  Perhaps your lack of success has more to do with unethical spellwork on another without their permission?
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Ghost Wolf

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 06:06:28 PM »

So, if you can't get full names one would have to assume you aren't doing a spell for them.  Perhaps your lack of success has more to do with unethical spellwork on another without their permission?

:yeahthat:
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Claude

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 07:47:34 PM »

Your ethics are different than mine and my success rate is good enough. Having someone's full name is a preference and a guideline because first and last names are generic. The idea that spells should only be cast on people with their permission is nonsensical and reduces the effectiveness/usefulness of magic down to about nothing.

History is full of examples of magic being used against individuals or even nations without their permission. The hundreds of defixione found throughout the Roman Empire are wonderful examples. I doubt that the casters made the person aware of the fact that they were being offered to the Manes. Another good example would be Evocatio. Yes the unfortunate besieged people could see the Romans calling their gods from the city but they really didn't give permission to it. This isn't just unique to the Religio Romana. Nidstangs were certainly erected without the consent of the target.

But oddly enough I didn't want to call my ethics nor my limitless historical examples into question. I just wanted to know what others thought about using emails phone numbers etc in place of things like hair.
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dragonspring

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 10:13:36 PM »

My spells are directed to the correct person through my will and ability to send the energy along the correct path.  Names have nothing to do with it.  I do find it difficult to conceive of a situation where I would think a spell was necessary for someone with whom I am not well enough acquainted to know their real name.  People are often much different than how they appear on the internet - it would be like doing a spell on an actor's character.
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Ghost Wolf

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2013, 10:26:05 PM »



But oddly enough I didn't want to call my ethics nor my limitless historical examples into question.

 :rolleye:
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vordan

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2013, 12:40:41 AM »

I don't like the cell phone  or e-mail concept. If you can get something more directly connected to them it would be better. One of the reasons a sorcerer or sorceress would use a nail or hair clipping is the concept of once connected always connected. That concept has some basis in quantum physics actually even if rather thin. The use of a personal item that has been in contact with the  person is a substitute for not being able to obtain a lock of hair. The theory there is that the energy of the person is transferred after long contact to the object. An e-mail is not enough contact. Barring that, an ability to visualize the person is sometimes more then sufficient rendering the e-mail or cell phone irrelevant. As a technical question not I don't like the concept. Now the substitution of photos for poppets or handmade figures was alright for it helped in the visualization process.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 05:16:57 PM by vordan »
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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2013, 12:55:01 AM »

But oddly enough I didn't want to call my ethics [..snip..] into question.

And yet, you've done just that.

History is full of stories of people who've committed atrocities in the name of some deity, some perceived wrong, or even just because someone was different.  If you chose to have a morality that falls along those lines, then you should be prepared to have that questioned ... especially on a site full of pagans who have a higher moral standard than many other people on this earth.

Those of us who own/run this site, do not believe in using spellwork to harm or punish others without good reason, nor do we agree with the belief that just because someone else has done something makes it OK for us or others to do the same.  We chose to be better than the average joe who lashes out at some perceived slight.  If that is troublesome to you, perhaps this isn't a site you should be frequenting.
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Claude

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2013, 01:50:12 PM »

But oddly enough I didn't want to call my ethics [..snip..] into question.

And yet, you've done just that.

History is full of stories of people who've committed atrocities in the name of some deity, some perceived wrong, or even just because someone was different.  If you chose to have a morality that falls along those lines, then you should be prepared to have that questioned ... especially on a site full of pagans who have a higher moral standard than many other people on this earth.

Those of us who own/run this site, do not believe in using spellwork to harm or punish others without good reason, nor do we agree with the belief that just because someone else has done something makes it OK for us or others to do the same.  We chose to be better than the average joe who lashes out at some perceived slight.  If that is troublesome to you, perhaps this isn't a site you should be frequenting.
At which point did I say I was going to commit an atrocity or something negative in any way? The fact of the matter is you have no idea what my plans are. I can guarantee you that I never said anything about my spell that would logically lead someone to believe that I was going to "lash out" "punish" or "harm". I never called my morals into question either. Take note that I haven't even given my moral standing on this post at all.

I don't like the cell phone  or e-mail concept. If you can get something more directly connected to them it would be better. One of the reasons a sorcerer or sorceress would use a nail or hair clipping is the concept of once connected always connected. That concept has some basis in quantum physics actually even if rather thin. The use of a personal item that has been in contact with the  person is a substitute for not being able to obtain a lock of hair. The theory there is that the energy of the person is transferred after long contact to the object. An e-mail is not enough contact. Barring that, an ability to visualize the person is sometimes more then sufficient rendering the e-mail or cell phone irrelevant. As a technical question not I don't like the concept. Now the substitution of photos for poppets or handmade figures was alright for it helped in the visualization process.
That's kind of what I was thinking. Thanks for the input Vordan!
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BronwynWolf

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2013, 06:37:07 PM »

This forum is a written medium. We can judge only on what we read. And in this, Claude, your initial inquiry sent up warning flares on the matter of ethics. I don't care if you think you are planning a beneficial action or not: if you can't ask someone for their full name, it indicates they don't know or wouldn't approve of what you are planning. With the exception of protective magic, that is, in the opinion of many here, UNethical. Period.
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Crystal Dragon

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2013, 12:22:16 AM »

This forum is a written medium. We can judge only on what we read. And in this, Claude, your initial inquiry sent up warning flares on the matter of ethics. I don't care if you think you are planning a beneficial action or not: if you can't ask someone for their full name, it indicates they don't know or wouldn't approve of what you are planning. With the exception of protective magic, that is, in the opinion of many here, UNethical. Period.

 :yeahthat:


At which point did I say I was going to commit an atrocity or something negative in any way? The fact of the matter is you have no idea what my plans are. I can guarantee you that I never said anything about my spell that would logically lead someone to believe that I was going to "lash out" "punish" or "harm". I never called my morals into question either. Take note that I haven't even given my moral standing on this post at all.

Apparently you aren't as familiar with logic as you'd like to think. The fact that you were extremely vague about your intent is telling ... what one doesn't say sometimes says more than what one does say.  If you feel you need something "personal" to effect a spell, then you don't know a person well (eg. would be less than effective at sending energy to the appropriate person) and there are very few reasons to cast a spell "for" someone one doesn't know well.
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Eternal Seeker

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2013, 07:42:34 AM »


"At which point did I say I was going to commit an atrocity or something negative in any way?" CD is absolutely right... When asked, you provided no positive purposes for your actions, and gave as historical examples hideous curses like a Nidstang. Logically, if you had a good or laudable intention in mind you'd have given it; therefore, given the bad examples you cited, we made the only logical conclusion. This was confirmed by your continuing to refuse explanation even as you complained about your ethics being questioned.

Frankly, I can conceive of no good example of a spell so personal that you need a direct connection to them that you would do without their knowledge and consent. Protection? A ward or shield doesn't need to know what's behind it, only what it's deflecting; personal identifiers are unnecessary. Healing? The only reason to attempt it without knowledge or consent would be if you knew in advance that they would not approve, or that it's against their own religious practices, in which case you'd be doing more harm than good. Only a violation of their person- an attempt at subjugating their will, or a curse of some nature- would require personal connections that you couldn't simply ask them for.

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StarlingFire

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2013, 12:58:41 PM »

I could see it if you are being harassed or stalked by someone you don't know well... I once did a spell to keep someone away from me, that was designed to make her feel really uncomfortable when she came near me or my loved ones, or even thought about me.
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Moonshine Thistlewish

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2013, 03:58:26 PM »

I don't think historical examples of why doing bad things is okay are really relevant in the world we live in today.

But then I also don't think preachiness and moralizing have any benefit except to the people agreeing with each other, if an open discussion about the matter isn't the goal of the conversation.

I would be very interested, Claude, in having a conversation with you about how your personal ethics evolved and what drew you to certain historical examples.

To answer your question - numbers of any kind are just a placeholder for more meaningful communication. For instance, social security numbers, policy numbers, etc. They are mutable and shifting and more numbers are piled on us as we grow older. Our reviews at work are contingent on our hiring dates, etc. All of the numbers add up to a personal profile of someone, but the numbers themselves are meaningless. Just data without context.

Likewise e-mail addresses are often chosen to represent a facet of a person, not the whole. Skydiver77@hotmail.com, for example, may tell you that someone was born in 77 and they like to sky dive but it doesn't touch on their whereabouts, their personal history, their family connections, what other hobbies they enjoy, etc.

So to base a spell with those bits of information as the focus, I think it would cause the results of the spell to become skewed or warped - or at best to be minimally effective.
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StarlingFire

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2013, 04:25:53 PM »

Good point... numbers are basically just placeholders, and email addresses are usually not representative of a whole person. However, the same can be said of names. I prefer to visualize the person when I am doing spellwork for somebody.
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Moonshine Thistlewish

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2013, 05:44:04 PM »

Good point... numbers are basically just placeholders, and email addresses are usually not representative of a whole person. However, the same can be said of names. I prefer to visualize the person when I am doing spellwork for somebody.

That's true, to a degree, I think. But a person goes their whole life being recognized and responding to their name. Answering to it and using it and giving it out and repetition does make a stronger connection.
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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2013, 09:28:07 PM »

Quote
But then I also don't think preachiness and moralizing have any benefit except to the people agreeing with each other, if an open discussion about the matter isn't the goal of the conversation.

Moonshine, care to define what you mean by this statement?
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Moonshine Thistlewish

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2013, 09:48:09 PM »

Quote
But then I also don't think preachiness and moralizing have any benefit except to the people agreeing with each other, if an open discussion about the matter isn't the goal of the conversation.

Moonshine, care to define what you mean by this statement?

Sure. :) If the person raising the concern isn't willing to discuss side issues raised in a thread, then all that will happen is that people agreeing its bad and/or people agreeing its good will pat each other on the back and keep on agreeing with each other . . . but probably won't put any extra thought into the subject. I think we should make a separate thread for ethics and the evolution there of. :) It would be a very good discussion to have.
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crystal wolfstar

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2013, 10:06:56 PM »

Scroll down to the part that says "SUBSTITUTES FOR BODY FLUIDS: THE MAGICAL LINK".

http://www.luckymojo.com/bodyfluids.html
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dragonspring

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 11:09:00 PM »

Somehow, I think that if the OP couldn't obtain the subjects name, it would be pretty much impossible for him to obtain the substitutes listed in the link.
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crystal wolfstar

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2013, 11:43:14 PM »

Very true. :)

You can see the list is in hierarchical order, too, with the person's full name all the way at the bottom of the list. If you don't even have that, there's really no point.
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vordan

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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2013, 12:12:01 AM »

I tried to treat this as a technical question for I felt the morality aspect was well covered by others. Other people discussed the random nature of assigned numbers. I think he got a fairly broad response from everyone, which is all anybody could ask for.
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Re: Personal Objects Used in Spells
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2013, 12:24:29 AM »

Good point... numbers are basically just placeholders, and email addresses are usually not representative of a whole person. However, the same can be said of names. I prefer to visualize the person when I am doing spellwork for somebody.

That's true, to a degree, I think. But a person goes their whole life being recognized and responding to their name. Answering to it and using it and giving it out and repetition does make a stronger connection.

That's not exactly true, necessarily. Maybe it's largely a function of where I live, but many people I know have had different names (both functionally and legally) at different times of their lives, both first and last.
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