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[Man Yellow]

People probably do not necessarily die if a direct death spell is cast on them. It is not that simple I think. However, if the spell intentions that the person die by some conventional means (car accident, murder, etc.) That spell may actually cause a death. Most black magick, I surmise, though, is meant to create a correspondent complex in the person under attack. This gives them energy and principles to be able to do things that benefits themselves (you go 'down' and they go 'up')

A few sensitivity issues:
1. Don't assume that the reason a person is affected by psychic attack is because they 'believe' it will harm them.
2. Mental illness might be one of the symptoms of psychic attack. Don't assume that it 'proves' they aren't.

Be Blessed!

"Sensitivity issues"?  Is this to imply that discussion of the possibility of either item is somehow offensive?

[Stormjester]

People probably do not necessarily die if a direct death spell is cast on them. It is not that simple I think. However, if the spell intentions that the person die by some conventional means (car accident, murder, etc.) That spell may actually cause a death. Most black magick, I surmise, though, is meant to create a correspondent complex in the person under attack. This gives them energy and principles to be able to do things that benefits themselves (you go 'down' and they go 'up')

A few sensitivity issues:
1. Don't assume that the reason a person is affected by psychic attack is because they 'believe' it will harm them.

2. Mental illness might be one of the symptoms of psychic attack. Don't assume that it 'proves' they aren't.

Be Blessed!

"Sensitivity issues"?  Is this to imply that discussion of the possibility of either item is somehow offensive?

Certainly not. Just try to be sensitive when you assess what a person might be going through.

[Man Yellow]

Certainly not. Just try to be sensitive when you assess what a person might be going through.

Sensitivity is not one of my strong points.  I am not by nature an empathic person.

What strikes me as being counter to your first point is this...Traditional curses (such as Kurdaitcha, for example) don't seem to have any effect whatsoever on people from outside the culture that employ them.

Kurdaitcha, for example, was blamed for the death of an Aborigine by the name of Kinjika in 1953, despite life support measures lasting 96 hours (until his death) in a modern medical facility (including the use of an iron lung).  No pathologies or injuries were discovered during the postmortem investigation.

The exact same curse was employed on Australian Prime Minister John Howard in 2004.  He is alive and well to this day.

[Starbrightmoon]

I've had someone explain to me why a curse wouldn't work on someone that doesn't believe in it.
The reasoning was that person had unconsciously put up a strong protective barrier (by their not believing, I assume). Those that believe have a significantly weaker barrier that allows the curse to work.

Still sounds like a mind trick to me either way. Like the placebo effect, only with dieing instead of healing.

[Man Yellow]

I've had someone explain to me why a curse wouldn't work on someone that doesn't believe in it.
The reasoning was that person had unconsciously put up a strong protective barrier (by their not believing, I assume). Those that believe have a significantly weaker barrier that allows the curse to work.

Still sounds like a mind trick to me either way. Like the placebo effect, only with dieing instead of healing.

This is possible, though Occam's Razor would imply the reverse.

[WillowWisp]

Polygraph tests aren't admissible evidence in most American courts of law. The evidence tying a person to a magical crime would be even more ephemeral, and thus even less acceptable. And what would prevent the use of further spells to obfuscate the evidence?

Earthly courts cannot adjudicate magical laws.

In this way, we see that the world is unjust.

[Stormjester]

The problem arises in Christian thought, and Christian counseling. Telling a person that they are suffering because they don't "enough faith" can be psychologically disastrous, and seems to reflect a very immature approach to the problem of suffering theologically. BTW, Man Yellow, it seems from your post that you have a strong familiarity with Magick. What is your background?

Be Blessed!

[Man Yellow]

The problem arises in Christian thought, and Christian counseling. Telling a person that they are suffering because they don't "enough faith" can be psychologically disastrous, and seems to reflect a very immature approach to the problem of suffering theologically. BTW, Man Yellow, it seems from your post that you have a strong familiarity with Magick. What is your background?

Be Blessed!

I have no background with magick (what's the k for?) whatsoever.  I do, however, have an enormous capacity for remembering scraps of information, such as the Kurdaitcha business.  I am merely applying logic to the situation; all systems which reflect the actual state of the universe must - by definition - operate under the same rules as the universe itself.  Therefore, any belief system must have an underpinning of logic.  "Sympathetic magic" is a prime example of a belief system which appeals to the rules of the universe at large, for example.

[Stormjester]

Polygraph tests aren't admissible evidence in most American courts of law. The evidence tying a person to a magical crime would be even more ephemeral, and thus even less acceptable. And what would prevent the use of further spells to obfuscate the evidence?

Earthly courts cannot adjudicate magical laws.

In this way, we see that the world is unjust.

Universal negatives cannot be proven.

[Claude]

Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

[Mongo]

Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.

[crystal wolfstar]

Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.

Who wants that? Most of the posts I've seen have been in agreement that it would be impossible to implement fairly.

And how do you define "harm through spellwork"? Sickness and death, sure, but there's a big grey area. What if you used magic to get a particular job and it worked, but somebody else needed the job worse? What if they became homeless because they didn't get it? What about court case magic, say, in a divorce settlement?

"Anything you do is going to be evil to somebody."
- Joseph Campbell

[Man Yellow]

Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.

So, basically, back to Salem.

My crops failed.  Find the witch.

My son has a fever.  Find the witch.

My investment portfolio failed.  Find the witch.

[crystal wolfstar]

Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.

So, basically, back to Salem.

My crops failed.  Find the witch.

My son has a fever.  Find the witch.

My investment portfolio failed.  Find the witch.

Seems ironic on a pagan board, doesn't it?

[Golden Slumber]

Why would I ever trust/want Congress to meddle around in my spiritual practices?

There is more to the world than just the United States.

And isn't this what the thread is about? Wanting people to recognize magic and to punish those who cause harm through spellwork in the same way that people are punished for causing harm through more physical means?

Impractical though it may be.

So, basically, back to Salem.

My crops failed.  Find the witch.

My son has a fever.  Find the witch.

My investment portfolio failed.  Find the witch.

HI Man Yellow!

I think what Mongo was tryin to say was that it's better to cause harm through spiritual means than physical means. The emotional release is really important to a lot of beliefts. Even Satanism said that its good to get the emotions out before they destroy you! This way, you won't do any real harm but you will feel better!

Please correct me if I got you wrong Mongo!

[holyfool]

I think what Mongo was tryin to say was that it's better to cause harm through spiritual means than physical means.

Really? That's a pretty left-hand path sort of think.

[Golden Slumber]

HI!

I probably got him wrong! I'll let him answer instead! Probably get more sense!

[Mongo]

I think what Mongo was tryin to say was that it's better to cause harm through spiritual means than physical means. The emotional release is really important to a lot of beliefts. Even Satanism said that its good to get the emotions out before they destroy you! This way, you won't do any real harm but you will feel better!

Please correct me if I got you wrong Mongo!

Dead wrong...sorry.

Actually the point I'm trying to make is that by trying to find a way to seek punishment for spell casters is a risky proposition since once that cat is out of the bag...where does it stop? How long before someone slips and breaks an arm walking on the icy sidewalk they couldn't be arsed to shovel and think "Gee! Mongo is a wiccan and if I can sue him I can get some phat cash!".

All it would take is convincing a jury that I'm holding a grudge against them and that I'm packing enough magical stuff to back up that grudge.

How could I defend against that in a court of law? Once that door opens...it's Salem all over again.

Besides I have other ways of dealing with the negativity. I have a ritual that works wonders (posted on this forum) and well...I play a lot of MEdal of Honor and imagine the people that have annoyed me are the nazi's I'm shooting.

[Crystal Dragon]

Besides I have other ways of dealing with the negativity. I have a ritual that works wonders (posted on this forum) and well...I play a lot of MEdal of Honor and imagine the people that have annoyed me are the nazi's I'm shooting.

 

I had friend once who had a significant commute to work.  He once told me that when the boss ticked him off he'd imagine that bossman was in the car in front of him on the highway and that he had lasers on his car ... great stress reliever!

[Golden Slumber]

I think what Mongo was tryin to say was that it's better to cause harm through spiritual means than physical means. The emotional release is really important to a lot of beliefts. Even Satanism said that its good to get the emotions out before they destroy you! This way, you won't do any real harm but you will feel better!

Please correct me if I got you wrong Mongo!

Dead wrong...sorry.

Actually the point I'm trying to make is that by trying to find a way to seek punishment for spell casters is a risky proposition since once that cat is out of the bag...where does it stop? How long before someone slips and breaks an arm walking on the icy sidewalk they couldn't be arsed to shovel and think "Gee! Mongo is a wiccan and if I can sue him I can get some phat cash!".

All it would take is convincing a jury that I'm holding a grudge against them and that I'm packing enough magical stuff to back up that grudge.

How could I defend against that in a court of law? Once that door opens...it's Salem all over again.

Besides I have other ways of dealing with the negativity. I have a ritual that works wonders (posted on this forum) and well...I play a lot of MEdal of Honor and imagine the people that have annoyed me are the nazi's I'm shooting.

HI!

Thanks for correcting me! Would a court really think that now? I thought everywhere had got rid of those kinds of laws!

[Mongo]

Would a court really think that now? I thought everywhere had got rid of those kinds of laws!

Here in the United States or any modern, civilized nation? Not likely. But that's what the Original Poster was talking about. How people who do cast magic for ill should be punished in the court of law. Some were saying that we should and I was saying that since there is no scientific way to quantify magic, that to do so would risk a revisitation of the Salem Witch Trials.

And yes, here in the 21st century that sort of thing is still happening in the third-world nations of the Middle East and Africa. And it's pretty much as I said. Someone wants to off someone so they claim that they can't get Mr. Fiddles to perform anymore (impotence) and that their neighbor is the one who cast the spell.

Neighbor is tried, convicted on the flimsiest of evidence and is killed...usually brutally. 

[bearusgregoria]

i personally agree that the justice system is flawed but if there were a place that had a panel of some of the best witches/pagans in the country perhaps the world on it and the attacker were to go in front of the panel to be judged by them first to see if there is any wrong doing and inspect the victim to see if such an attack took place then have the justice system take it from there unless we were granted our own justice system that only witches can employ. no matter the case of course our justice system will think you crazy or something because there is no tangible proof other than hearsay to say that it even occured at all when both the attacker and victim kno precisely what happened. thats my point....

many blessings

[anubisa]

I agree that the legal and spiritual realms are best kept separate. However, if a spellcaster was to cast a killing spell then that would turn back on them. Karma would somehow make sure that person get's what they deserve.

[Summerhawk]

I agree that the legal and spiritual realms are best kept separate. However, if a spellcaster was to cast a killing spell then that would turn back on them. Karma would somehow make sure that person get's what they deserve.

Karma will have it's way.

[thegeekwitch]

I'm a little amused and a little concerned by this whole conversation (I've been up since 4:00am so maybe I'm starting to get delirious though).

My personal thoughts on the matter are that if you were to kill someone by magical means, karmic law would kick your ass well and truly before any justice system would or could. 

I think the OP's question is interesting but at the same time the continuing thread was unnecessary because it was answered within the first 2-3 replies - inviting the legal system to allow the punishment of spellcasters is Salem and other historic witchhunts all over again.  To allow the punishment of someone who supposedly cast a spell of death upon someone, you would have to allow punishment of all spellcasting which has an unwarranted negative affect on another person - I have no issue with people being punished for using such spells (and I repeat, the Universe would take care of that); the problem lies as to where the evidence is and how exactly would you prove that event took place at all? 

As far as the belief in magic or if magic even works, that doesn't even really matter.  If I do a spell and it works for me, but you don't see the results yourself, does that mean the spell isn't real?  Like Mongo said, there's no measuring stick (yet) for magic or some forms of energy; we can't see, hold, hear or feel magic in a scientific sense. Until we can, there's no proof that it does or doesn't exist (a bit like deity, really).  Until there's tangible, measurable proof, you can't use that against someone in a court of law.

And now I'm going back to bed...