Pagan Journeys

Pagan Journeys => Beginner's Chat => Topic started by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 18, 2012, 11:57:55 AM

Title: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 18, 2012, 11:57:55 AM
I mentioned before that I would have questions, so, here they are:

1.)  Where do I start? I have read through a couple threads, but am still confused as to where to start.

2.)  Can you cast a circle if you're solitary?

3.)  Do you guys believe in these dieties? Or do you suspend disbelief when "performing"?  As I stated in my intro, my husband is a satanist, and when performing a ritual he calls upon these dieties. However, it's almost like he's giving a name to an emotion.
      For example; When he does a compassion ritual, he would probably call upon Bast, but not because he believes Bast is going to fill him with love and happiness. It's like instead of saying "Hail compassion"!, he says "Hail Bast"!, like he's giving a name to an emotion or feeling. It's very theatrical, and when he's done and leaves his chamber, he steps back into "reality" (for lack of a better word). He calls it "suspending disbelief".  Is it the same here?
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: vordan on January 18, 2012, 12:10:40 PM
1.Everybody starts where they will, but the first place to start in my coven is to start think about what you believe and what you hope to achieve on this path. Try to connect to the cycles of nature, the world around you, the Wheel of the Year and the phases of the moon. This phase will last until you are about 80 or so.
2. Yes a solitary can cast a circle.
3. Yes I believe in the dieties, how I percieve their reality may differ from someone else and is subject to change. There is no suspension of disbelief there is simply expression of belief.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: dragonspring on January 18, 2012, 12:50:08 PM
1.  I would agree with vordan on this.  Connecting with nature is a very good way to start.  Some of my first work involved greeting the Sun and Moon everyday with a short meditiation.

2. Yes.

3.  I believe in the dieties.  Some people view them in an archetypal manner which would be similar to what you described with your husband. I would point out that you said that your husband was LHP and did not specify that he was Satanist in your intro.  Satanism is not the only LHP. ;)
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: BronwynWolf on January 18, 2012, 03:52:53 PM
1} Vordan has a fair answer. Connections and goals are important. Other than that: READ. I usually tell people to read mythology that appeals to them.

2} But of course. I used to all the time, when I was starting on a Wiccan path. Actually, while more energy may be found in greater numbers, it is easier to have only one director.

3} Yes,  I believe in the existance of the dieties. I may not work with all of them, since my loyalty is to specific ones, but I do know they are real.
Interesting side note, but if I were naming a deity for compasion, Quan Yin would come to mind a lot faster than Bast.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Rovay on January 18, 2012, 05:23:16 PM
1. In my opinion, you should find whatever gives you strength - spirit, deities - to get the needed answer on where to start. I find it best to learn from higher powers than humans.

2. In my practice, solitary is the only way to go.

3. I also believe in all deities, but do serve only two of them. I don't have a shred of doubt in my heart about that, I know I draw my power from something. I ask of you this - if you do not believe in deities, how do you think you will have the energy to do what you want? Because my experience has lead me to believe that those of us who have the potential to do something don't possess it just because they are born this way, but because it is given to them. And I find it impossible to believe in them only when performing, but not out of that; it is simply out of the question. Then again, I walk a straight RHP, situations are probably way different.

Also, you can be as theatrical as you like, hehehe. Found that remark to be funny.

@BronwynWolf - not familiar with satanist rituals, but I myself find Bast to kind of be closer to what I imagine the practice of that group would involve. Quan Yin is more... straight-forward compassionate, I'd say, as you said yourself.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 18, 2012, 07:57:17 PM
Quote
I would point out that you said that your husband was LHP and did not specify that he was Satanist in your intro.  Satanism is not the only LHP. 
Hehe...true that! Sorry, I should have specified.

Quote
not familiar with satanist rituals, but I myself find Bast to kind of be closer to what I imagine the practice of that group would involve

You're right! That IS who they use.  :cheer:

Thank you all for answering so quickly! I do have one more question though, if I may?  What if one was more nature oriented and not so much into dieties? For example, if I were to believe in the power of Mother Nature, and look to the Sun as a sort of God and the Moon as a Goddess.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: earthmuffin on January 18, 2012, 08:07:52 PM

Thank you all for answering so quickly! I do have one more question though, if I may?  What if one was more nature oriented and not so much into dieties? For example, if I were to believe in the power of Mother Nature, and look to the Sun as a sort of God and the Moon as a Goddess.

You will find quite a few pagans with similar views/beliefs. That is much how I practice as the moment.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: earthmuffin on January 18, 2012, 08:46:58 PM
I mentioned before that I would have questions, so, here they are:

1.)  Where do I start? I have read through a couple threads, but am still confused as to where to start.


FairyQueen recently asked a similar question and I think got some good answers in case you haven't seen it yet.

http://www.paganjourneys.com/index.php?topic=1758.msg25801#msg25801
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 18, 2012, 11:07:12 PM
Yes, Muffin, I did see that. I guess what I should've asked was not so much "where to start", but how? With so much available, it's easy to get flustered and intimidated.   :hairpull: haha!

As a side note, I think I have a problem with the "serving" of anything, which is why I look to Mother Nature, the Sun, and the Moon. Not serving them, but more like friends, where we all kind of work together. Does that make sense or am I totally missing the point?

Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: earthmuffin on January 19, 2012, 12:28:26 AM
It makes sense to me, but really the only person it needs to make sense to is you. ;)  You develop your personal conception of and relationship with the Divine as you see it. That's all that is really important, I think, and is a good starting place. Follow your heart.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Crystal Dragon on January 19, 2012, 12:56:03 AM
The reason you hear folks talk about serving deity is because many of us are chosen by our deities, not the other way around.  When you are chosen, you are told what you must do, you don't get to pick and choose what you want.  If you're not ready for that sort of commitment, it's likely you won't be chosen. ;)
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Rovay on January 19, 2012, 01:32:00 AM
The reason you hear folks talk about serving deity is because many of us are chosen by our deities, not the other way around.  When you are chosen, you are told what you must do, you don't get to pick and choose what you want.  If you're not ready for that sort of commitment, it's likely you won't be chosen. ;)

QFT, what can I say.

Still, The Divine Mrs. H - coolish nickname-, to answer your question myself - when you don't want to commit yourself, there is the option of drawing energy from elements. Water, fire, earth, air, and, well, if we count it, spirit - they all have certain energy involved around them. If you learn how to channel it, you can draw small portion of energy from those. Which would mean maybe starting a fire in your circle. Try not to set yourself on fire, though, that won't be fun. You must know, though, elements are often more lively than you would believe; it is unlikely that they will just "obey" what you ask of them, and they would certain not help you in thing that goes about their own nature, if we may say so. But this is long and complex topic; understanding the elements is one of the hardest things, and I certainly no human can do it completely, I myself don't know how to explain to you the few things I've understood. So, if you don't want to draw power from specific deities, try with the elements, but you should definitely try to learn as much as possible of what they truly are before you begin.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: dragonspring on January 19, 2012, 08:08:14 AM
The reason you hear folks talk about serving deity is because many of us are chosen by our deities, not the other way around.  When you are chosen, you are told what you must do, you don't get to pick and choose what you want.  If you're not ready for that sort of commitment, it's likely you won't be chosen. ;)
:yeahthat:
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 19, 2012, 09:53:50 AM
Quote
when you don't want to commit yourself,

Quote
If you're not ready for that sort of commitment, it's likely you won't be chosen.


I understand what you're saying, but it's not that I don't want to commit or I'm not ready to, it's that my scientific mind wont allow me to believe in deities. I can only believe in nature and science because both are fact and both are proven.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Ghost Wolf on January 19, 2012, 11:05:25 AM
You're going to have to get over that.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Rovay on January 19, 2012, 11:14:17 AM
You do believe your husband and his things, don't you? How come you cannot believe all the other things?

Also, mind is sometimes the weakest part of a person; it makes you try and find reason where you cannot see obvious one. Also, just 50 years ago science thought  there isn't any other planet like ours. Science is developed by humans; its factology /yes, I just invented this word, bear with me/ is ever-changing. Nature existed long before that.

Also, no excuses. You are either believing, your aren't. Miracles start happening once you start believing in them, they rarely happen to make you believe.

Simple as that.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Crystal Dragon on January 19, 2012, 12:20:48 PM
I understand what you're saying, but it's not that I don't want to commit or I'm not ready to, it's that my scientific mind wont allow me to believe in deities. I can only believe in nature and science because both are fact and both are proven.

That's an excuse the logical brain offers up when the emotional side fears something. ;)

I find that my knowledge of nature and science enhance my understanding of how energies work ... including deity and beings that in habit the "other worlds".
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: VisionFromAfar on January 19, 2012, 02:05:30 PM
If you want the beginnings of a scientific outlook, try looking into basic quantum/string theory and the multiverse theorem.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: earthmuffin on January 19, 2012, 06:29:55 PM
I know where you are coming from, Divine Mrs. H. I respectfully disagree with the others that you need to believe in deity to qualify as pagan or to "correctly" follow a pagan path.  Many shamans and shamanic practitioners fit well under the umbrella term, pagan, and identify with the label, yet don't have a belief in deity or deities. Those who adhere to the World Panentheist Movement could also qualify as pagans, IMO, and do not believe in deity, only that the cosmos and the planet are in and of themselves divine. A belief in Divinity does not require a belief in a specific deity or deities. I also disagree that if you don't believe, you cannot or will not be "chosen" by or have information revealed to you by said divinity. If that were the case, there would be no such thing as a spiritual revelation or epiphanies.

You may find, however, that you do have to believe in some things as yet unvalidated by science to follow a pagan path or spiritual path of any kind (or that maybe you already do), and you may find yourself engaging in certain practices that do require some suspension of disbelief on your part in order to make those practices effective. I would also encourage you to do some thinking about what your beliefs are, the judgements you make, and how much scientific proof and personal proof is actually requisite to those beliefs and judgements. I've spent many years in science and have found that many members of the scientific community like to believe that they are completely objective because they are scientists, when they are biased toward science and hold just as many unfounded beliefs as anyone else.

Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: dragonspring on January 19, 2012, 07:14:35 PM
I didn't see anyone saying that one cannot be Pagan if they do not believe in specific deities.  Did I miss something?   :confused:

Some belief in Divinity is required for a religious practice in order for it to be a religious practice.  Generally, religion has an element of faith. 
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: earthmuffin on January 19, 2012, 07:33:48 PM
I don't think I misinterpreted anyone.


Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Crystal Dragon on January 19, 2012, 08:03:27 PM
I'm a bit confused too ... I also don't see where anyone said specifically that one must follow deity to be pagan.  We were merely answering questions the OP asked about deity and the belief in them or why one might feel the need to say they "serve" the gods as opposed to just honoring them.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Mongo on January 19, 2012, 11:09:01 PM
1.)  Where do I start?  

Wherever is most comfortable for you. A lot of solitary Wiccans start with the Scott Cunningham books if they're called by Wicca. It was where I got my start. But I usually like to suggest to a new person starting out that reading, reading, and even more reading is the best starting place. If you find some source that feels right then by all means use it. No sense reinventing the wheel as it were. But if your calling is not neatly pigeon-holed into an existing path then you may have to look at your self and your beliefs and see what feels right from each of what you read and mix it in with your own rituals you create using some of the ideas contained in the books.

2.)  Can you cast a circle if you're solitary?

Casting a circle is not something that is reserved for the big shingdig with the ful coven and a High Priest and Pristess. Casting a circle is something that you do to create sacred space or at least as a way to isolate yourself from the influences of the mundane world while communing with the Divine, spell work, or many find that just casting the circle before meditating helps them get into the proper mindset and helps them relax.

I've even been known to cast a circle before going to sleep if I just can't escape the waking world around me. Sleeping days can be hard sometimes.

So by all means if you want to cast a circle then feel free to do so.

3.)  Do you guys believe in these dieties? Or do you suspend disbelief when "performing"?  

That depends on how you define belief. Unlike many Wiccans (or pagans in general) my God and Goddess have never revealed their names to me. I can see them, they have made themselves known to me, but never given me a name to attach to them. At first it bothered me but as I progressed in my path and have talked to others on their paths I came to realize that there is only one divine. A divine spirit that has many facets. These facets we have given names to. The facet that governs cats we frequently ascribe to Bastet as an example. We seek out a facet or a set of facets that calls to us. That we have some connection with. It is through those facets that we serve the Divine and the multiverse at large.

So I do believe that there is an Isis, an Apollo, an Odin, a Bastet. They are not the ones that call to me as my patrons (although my affinity to cats does have me connected to Bastet, she's just not my patron...we just work well together), but I do believe in them as facets of a greater being.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: earthmuffin on January 19, 2012, 11:27:03 PM
I'm a bit confused too ... I also don't see where anyone said specifically that one must follow deity to be pagan.  We were merely answering questions the OP asked about deity and the belief in them or why one might feel the need to say they "serve" the gods as opposed to just honoring them.

I must apologize for my haste earlier. I was interrupted and had to run out the door to an evening thing we were going to and should have made a more thoughtful reply. You are both right, DS and CD; no one specifically said you have to follow deity to be pagan. I felt it was implied in some of the responses though, which may have been my own interpretation knowing that they came from folks who do believe in deities, and wanted to clarify for the OP since she was asking about the necessity of a belief in deity. DS suggested that faith is required for a spiritual path and I'm not sure if I agree or not. I think it might be possible to believe entirely in what is seen and known about the natural world as real through science and still revere or worship that as a religion. That is very similar to the World Panentheist Movement as I understand it. That's more of the idea I was trying to get across and that if the OP or anyone else wants to hold a belief like that, no one should make them feel that they are less correct than others that believe otherwise. I think the comments about having to believe in order to find miracles and having to show commitment to be chosen by deity coupled with GW's comment about "needing to get over" her current viewpoint set me off in that direction.  Again, my apologies.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Mongo on January 19, 2012, 11:29:50 PM
I understand what you're saying, but it's not that I don't want to commit or I'm not ready to, it's that my scientific mind wont allow me to believe in deities. I can only believe in nature and science because both are fact and both are proven.

But not everything in science is proven. A lot of science is faith. Until we actually found the darn things, black holes were something that we believed in based on the faith in our understanding in science and the faith in our mathmatics.

And even when we did find one we found that a lot of our theories we held such great faith in was a bit off of reality.

We had faith in the fact that the speed of light was a constant. There has been recent evidence that it may not be the case. If the results can be duplicated, we have found photons that travelled faster than light. That's light going faster than it should be travelling. Something like that shakes our faith in our science and mathmatics to the very foundation.

So if you can have faith in things that are not proven, are theories and in some cases just plain outright guesses...why can you not have faith in something else that is not proven.

Besides, Religion and Science do not have to be mutually exclusive. There is no reason that The Divine (God, Goddess, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc) can't be the "Why" of the multiverse while Science is the "How". We may eventually discover that science is simply the tools of the Divine and through our connection to the Divine can use these self same tools for ourselves.

Another way to look at it. The Divine is omnipotent. It can control the flow of everything down to the subatomic particles. But why does it have to? Would it really like to micromanage things to that level? If I were an omnipotent entity I'd put in place rules and laws and scientific whatevers to allow for the universe to govern itself and toddle off and have some "Me Time".

The real trick here is to realize that nothing that we do requires us to change our beliefs or requires us to be anything other than what we are. Look at me. I'm a science geek, amateur astronomer, armchair astrophysist, computer nerd, gamer, gun enthuasist, avid researcher into WWII military technology (I could wax poetic about the F6F Hellcat for hours)...and many many more. But when I stopped being an agnostic and started down my Wiccan path...I had to give none of that up. I could be a Pagan believing in the Divine and the facets that have called to me and *still* play World of Warcraft while watching "The Universe" on the History Channel and no one minds.

All you are doing is opening your mind to the larger picture. You stop looking at the trees and start seeing the forest.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Crystal Dragon on January 20, 2012, 01:04:01 AM
Well said Mongo! :)


@ EM ... no worries sis.  Stuff happens.  But thanks for clarifying. :squeezes:
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: BronwynWolf on January 20, 2012, 01:10:54 PM
Ah, the reasons we love Mongo! Hubs is like that: he is a male British Witch... he is also an amature astronomer, very interested in Earth Sciences, and a UK military history buff to an extent. This is the man who has a goatman on his altar and a poster of Apollo 11 behind it. Who envokes Rhiannon at Full Moon, and hosts a scientificly-geared astronomy online radio show on Friday nights.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Rovay on January 20, 2012, 03:11:49 PM
Ah, the reasons we love Mongo! Hubs is like that: he is a male British Witch... he is also an amature astronomer, very interested in Earth Sciences, and a UK military history buff to an extent. This is the man who has a goatman on his altar and a poster of Apollo 11 behind it. Who envokes Rhiannon at Full Moon, and hosts a scientificly-geared astronomy online radio show on Friday nights.

Regards to him from me personally, now that sounds cool ^^

And Mongo, seriously, whole post could be summed with the "Stop looking at the trees and see the forest." - simple and perfect for the situation. I hate it when someone thinks of those before me.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 20, 2012, 09:11:17 PM
I think what it all boils down to, is that this is not the place for me. After reading around, I have discovered that it's hard for me to wrap my head around alot of it. I first started my "religious" quest down the Satanic path when I was 16. I've gone through a bunch of other ones since then, and everytime I find it's just not right, I end up at the same point. So, here I am, 12 years later, ending up at the same door. I guess I know what's right and what comes to me naturally is what I need, so, it was nice meeting you all...you're very nice, warm people. Good luck on your quests!   :loveheart:
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Zlat on January 20, 2012, 11:18:28 PM
One or two responses to a single thread that you began; in a forum dedicated to giving people with various personalities and beliefs an accepting community to go to.

And you're ready to call it quits after.. a week or two? It seems to me like you came here expecting someone to give you answers that nobody but yourself can know. When you ask a question like that in a forum like this, you are going to get several dozen responses. All will be different and distinct, and all will be accepted and considered truth to at least one person here.

You get out what you put into something. That includes forums, threads, and your spiritual path. If you keep changing paths and expecting one of them to line up perfectly with the way you feel, you will never find your "place." The key for many of us is to take what fits, take note of the things that don't, and move on with your studies. Somewhere down the line, you may find that some of the things that didn't fit before will make sense later on.


And there are several pagan belief systems that do not refer to deities AND embrace scientific theory. I suggest you look back over those 12 years of your seeking and take note of the things that struck you as truth, and build from those. But the idea  that you can't 'wrap your head around' some of the concepts that have been discussed here doesn't necessarily mean that you can't find some community here; only that those concepts haven't played a part in your path.


That being said; I hope you find what you're looking for. But the answers are probably much closer than you think.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Rovay on January 20, 2012, 11:25:29 PM
12 years and you call it quits when a bunch of strangers spill a bucket of water over your head to welcome you to the family and check out the dedication? Don't be that lady, Mrs. H

Well, worst case scenario and you do want to think over where to go for your path, do not forget us. Feel free to come back when you feel more confident, if nothing else. I am sure I speak from the name of everyone when I say that this forum is an everlasting invitation for a home.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Crystal Dragon on January 21, 2012, 02:00:24 AM
I've watched some of the goings on here on the forums for the last week or so and have to say I've not been thrilled about some of it.  But with the last few responses here, I'm especially disappointed.

First, Mrs H, I want you to know that these two responses are not representative of the forum membership as a whole.  Regardless of how anyone feels about what you've said, your path is yours to follow and only you can decide what is best for you.  If you choose to leave that is your right and we wish you well.  If you decide to stick around, we will welcome your presence regardless of the path you wish to follow.  All are welcome here no matter what beliefs they hold.

Since the other admins are off snug in their beds, I am going to make a unilateral decision and deal with the last couple of responses in this thread in public.  Mainly because I think that while dealing with even mild reprimands in private may solve a particular problem, sometimes the rest of the members need to know what we expect ... and I believe that is the case here.  I'd prefer not to single folks out, but since it's blatantly obvious who said what here, I'm just gonna go with it.

All of our members were required to read and agree to the Terms Of Service (TOS) for these forums.  And while we realize that many don't bother to read the TOS, that is not something we can control.  Regardless, we expect all our members to abide by the TOS and behave in an adult manner, being respectful and polite to the other members.

I find these last two posts to be dangerously close to not only being disrespectful, but also close to flaming.  This is not the tone we want for these forums and this sort of talk will not be tolerated.  I also find it disturbing that we have members willing to join in with their friends and "gang up" on others.  I get that there are a lot of people on the web that exhibit bad behaviors and that what's been posted here is mild in comparison ... quite frankly, I don't care.  This behavior is unacceptable here and will not be tolerated.  Period.

At this point, I am strongly "suggesting" that those who have not read the TOS (http://www.paganjourneys.com/index.php?action=pages) and About (http://www.paganjourneys.com/index.php?action=pages;sa=2) pages here do so now.  If this sort of stuff continues, we will be issuing warnings.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Mongo on January 21, 2012, 05:02:26 AM
I think what it all boils down to, is that this is not the place for me.

Are you certain of that? This forum exists to be a place of community for all people and all paths. We haven't seen any yet but we also want this to be a place where even Christians who want to respectfully learn and understand what we are...are also welcome. This is intended to be a place where people can learn, can understand, can discuss and politely debate, and if they do not fit neatly into the pigeon holes of the established religions can get some help in finding their own paths regardless of what that path may be.

Even if that means grabbing the machete and carving that path through the jungle themselves.

So please don't give up on us yet.

Quote
After reading around, I have discovered that it's hard for me to wrap my head around alot of it. I first started my "religious" quest down the Satanic path when I was 16. I've gone through a bunch of other ones since then, and everytime I find it's just not right, I end up at the same point. So, here I am, 12 years later, ending up at the same door.

And I was an agnostic for 20 years and I did the same thing. I would try a path and realize that it didn't make sense to me. Went to many churches, read the bible until I could quote it chapter and verse and use it to argue for the same things others were arguing against.

Nothing. Not a bit of it made sense.

Then one day I was called. I saw the rede for the first time and I saw that "An it harm none, do as thou will" fit my self defined moral and ethical structure. So I dug a little deeper and the calling grew stronger.

So don't give up on yourself yet either. It may take a while but eventually a calling may touch you. Or it may not. Just remember that in either case feel free to stick around. We don't bite...much :D

Quote
I guess I know what's right and what comes to me naturally is what I need, so, it was nice meeting you all...you're very nice, warm people. Good luck on your quests!   :loveheart:

If you still feel the need to leave then you will be missed. Please remember that you can come back at any time whether you have found your calling or not. You'll always have a place here in our little 'net community.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 21, 2012, 11:22:00 AM
I appreciate the warm wishes, but, I have to also apologize because I didn't mean to cause an issue. There are some on here who I might consider rude, others not at all...either way, I didn't take offence to anything anyone has said. I'm pretty thick skinned in that scence.

In my 12 years of searching for my path, I have mainly come back to Paganism and Satanism, I think mostly because there are similarities between the two.  For example, both are nature based "religions", Satanism being slightly more carnal. Also, the holidays are pretty much the same. And the most important, both share the idea of ritual and use them in the same manner for the same purpose. The difference is, Satanists don't believe in the dieties, they are thier own Gods and they control thier own fate/destiny. It's more of an emotional outpour. They are not Theistic in anyway. People who call themselves Satanists who are theistic are not satanists, they're "inverted christians" and/or heretics. True Satanism was created in the mid 1960's, before then, it was the afore mentioned.

I find both facinating and find it difficult to combine the two. In fact, I don't think it can be done.   :hairpull:
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: earthmuffin on January 21, 2012, 11:52:09 AM
I'm curious as to what you think makes them incompatible-- I confess I know very little about Satanism, but pagans are a very diverse group and there is a lot of room for different interpretations/beliefs.

I hope you will feel free to hang out here and explore as long as you like. I've been hanging around for a few years now in search of what my path may be, and while I can't say I've know what it is now to a T, I certainly understand myself much better than I did before, thanks to the help and wise words of a lot of these folks.  Sometimes I still get a bit down when I feel like I don't really fit with this or that group and bemoan that no one else really seems to understand me (I seem to be some odd combo of an agnostic scientist and a pagan hedge-witchy type person, who is only now figuring this out at mid-life), but I try to remind myself to be less goal-oriented about my spirituality and my life but to view it as a process and to be compassionate with myself. It is an illusion to think that if I only do a,b, and c and understand d, that I will suddenly be a some blissful divine endpoint where everything in my life is clear and perfect.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Fox on January 21, 2012, 12:48:48 PM
I've been a bit awol lately so am late to this discussion.  I agree with EM's last post and feel that I view my path in a very similar way.  It is still different enough to say that my views are not the same, but only similar.  It is because there are so many different Pagan paths, each having their own set of ideals and practices, that it is sometimes difficult to identify as a Pagan.  I have yet to find a label that in any way truly represents my beliefs and because of that, I also find there are many many times that I feel as if I'm a bit of an outsider looking in.  I think that is part of the process we go through when trying to find our footing.  What I believe today and how I view things are dramatically different today than they were when I first started and I am certain they will be just as different in another 5 or 10 years.  Change and growth is part of who we are as humans, so why would we not expect to see at least some of that in our spiritual beliefs?

Mrs. H, please do not feel as though the few represent the all here.  Everyone is different and has different views and opinions.  You can often find enough similarities among a group to feel "at home" even though you may not agree with even a majority of what that group says/does/believes.  Sometimes it is just the energy of the people and not even the specifics that draw you together or push you apart.  I have been rather guilty myself (lately for sure) to allow energies that I do not like or am not comfortable with to push me away from something that is otherwise a wonderful experience.  I hope that you can see past some of the uncharacteristic energies that have been flying around here recently to see a better value for you underneath all of that.  It isn't often that any energy like that sticks around for long.  ()
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: dragonspring on January 21, 2012, 12:57:58 PM
There is a reason why this board is called Pagan Journeys.  A spiritual life is not a destination with a label, it is a journey to a better understanding of ourselves and how we fit on the universal web.  I really wish we could all get over the need for labels - but it is human nature to categorize things.

And Mrs H, a belief in oneself as god is a belief in diety IMO.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Ghost Wolf on January 21, 2012, 01:39:50 PM
What is meant by seeing one's self as a god (small "G") is that one aligns their will with the divine, thus serving one's true Will. This is the goal of the Hermeticists, the Ceremonial Magicians and Thelemites. Satanists, of the LeVeyan stripe, do not acknowledge that the divine exists, and are, for all intents, Atheists, using the trappings of magic as a psychological tool. This, however, is an illusion. The LHP practitioner may not regard the Qlippothic entities he calls upon as real, but they are very real. They are extremely chaotic entities, and, once committed to that path, they will not allow one to change to the RHP.

A member of our community tried to change in just such a manner, and his LHP entities gave him an ultimatum: One or the other, which really was no choice at all, as they would destroy him if he did not choose them. It is a path fraught with peril for the practitioner, one is balanced on the edge of the proverbial razor. It is the path to madness.

The path you choose is entirely up to you, but keen thought needs to go into making such a choice.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Rovay on January 21, 2012, 05:55:09 PM
What is meant by seeing one's self as a god (small "G") is that one aligns their will with the divine, thus serving one's true Will. This is the goal of the Hermeticists, the Ceremonial Magicians and Thelemites. Satanists, of the LeVeyan stripe, do not acknowledge that the divine exists, and are, for all intents, Atheists, using the trappings of magic as a psychological tool. This, however, is an illusion. The LHP practitioner may not regard the Qlippothic entities he calls upon as real, but they are very real. They are extremely chaotic entities, and, once committed to that path, they will not allow one to change to the RHP.

A member of our community tried to change in just such a manner, and his LHP entities gave him an ultimatum: One or the other, which really was no choice at all, as they would destroy him if he did not choose them. It is a path fraught with peril for the practitioner, one is balanced on the edge of the proverbial razor. It is the path to madness.

The path you choose is entirely up to you, but keen thought needs to go into making such a choice.

Yes, I also wanted to share my thoughts on the matter, but didn't want it to feel like I was attacking one path or another. I agree with Ghost Wolf, though - LHP gives little choice once chosen. Truth be told, when you are really dedicated and swear yourself to something, there is no going back, but just in RHP if you do try to call it quits, the consequences aren't that bad.
My friends look at me as spiritual adviser, and I am always honest with them - LHP is faster, LHP grants power quickly, results quickly, and feels more "real" because of that to beginners. But its price costs more than you would like to pay in long term, I am sure of that. Those of which that do lean towards LHP, I give some basic advices to, because I cannot guide them if they dive in further - I am 100 % RHP, and proud of it, despite the little dark thoughts that cloud my mind sometimes, which I know I will never make true because it is not my style, nor it will be allowed by my deities.

Stranded a little, back on track. I don't like LHP. I am honest about it, when I explain it, but I find if to be the choice of those who do not really seek enlightenment, but rather power. And they do get it, if they dive in. But as said, even if you are a good person, and like to keep it that way, the power and the urge for it is bound to get you corrupted in some point.

Here, I have quote from wikipedia that honestly explains my thoughts very well.

The difference between the right hand path and the left hand path is eloquently explained by Julius Evola in the book The Yoga of Power:

    "There is a significant difference between the two Tantric paths, that of the right hand and that of the left hand (which both are under Shiva's aegis). In the former, the adept always experiences 'someone above him', even at the highest level of realization. In the latter, 'he becomes the ultimate Sovereign' (chakravartin = worldruler)." [25]
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 23, 2012, 10:15:23 PM
Quote
Satanists, of the LeVeyan stripe, do not acknowledge that the divine exists, and are, for all intents, Atheists, using the trappings of magic as a psychological tool.

You couldn't be more right!! There is no doubt in my mind that the LHP isn't for me. There's got to be more to me than just atheist. After doing some thinking over the pst few days, I've decided to keep going on my journey. I have been offered a stepping stone of sorts from a member here, and have taken his offer. I look forward to my journey and hope it works out. Thank you for all your warm wishes!
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Crystal Dragon on January 23, 2012, 11:55:14 PM
Just a word of caution ... there is a reason we don't allow members to place their personal information on the forums here.  It's to keep everyone safe.  In the same vein, while we'd like to think all our members are honorable, just because you've met someone here does not mean they are 100% trustworthy so please be careful.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Rovay on January 24, 2012, 01:49:59 AM
Just a word of caution ... there is a reason we don't allow members to place their personal information on the forums here.  It's to keep everyone safe.  In the same vein, while we'd like to think all our members are honorable, just because you've met someone here does not mean they are 100% trustworthy so please be careful.

My rule too, kind of. To get trust you must first show trust, in most cases, but it is good to be careful in what amounts you do so. Little above the average can help make a better connection, without actually risking that much. In real life, the more I feared someone isn't trustworthy, the more trust I showed to him; making him feel obligated, if we feel so, to be noble towards me. Game of chance, of course - but I believe that I could get even a criminal to be noble in his behavior towards me by showing him trust. You can always find the good in people.

Sorry for being a little off-topic, I just find showing trust first to always to achieve the best results.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: dragonspring on January 24, 2012, 06:29:25 AM
I prefer to exercise a little caution myself.  There are things that go bump in the night and one often needs time to ferret them out.  One must remember that many Pagans are trained to alter their reality using will which sometimes leads to unhealthy manipulation of others.  It is not a simple thing to figure out how they apply ethics to their personal practice, especially online.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 24, 2012, 12:34:58 PM
Points taken!  :D I will proceed with caution.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 25, 2012, 01:43:58 PM
Just a side note... I have been doing a bit of research and came across pantheistic paganism. Are any here like this? Or familiar with pantheism?
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: dragonspring on January 25, 2012, 04:50:06 PM
I am somewhat familiar with it.  But it is not my path.  It is relatively common in Native American spirituality I believe.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 25, 2012, 05:43:51 PM
Yeah, I read that as well.
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: earthmuffin on January 25, 2012, 08:27:06 PM
It's the idea that God is the universe and everything in the universe. That is basically what I believe. I think I am safe in saying that many or even most shamanistic cultures would also qualify as pantheist. They are animistic, believing that every object is inhabited by spirit, which is understood to be a reflection of the larger whole. But as I understand the distinction between the two, one does not have to be an animist to be a pantheist. In other words, you might not believe that rocks have a spirit consciousness or soul but still believe that the universe and everything in it is God or an expression thereof. Neo-pagans pantheists are likely to be those folks who follow a shamanic path or atheist biologist types who revere nature (which is all of the macro-biologists at least-- that is why they go into that field even if they don't see it as spirituality ;)).
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: The Divine Mrs.H on January 30, 2012, 09:01:00 AM
Quote
one does not have to be an animist to be a pantheist.

You're very right. I read about animistic people/philosophy, and I couldn't latch onto that idea. My mom on the other hand apologizes to her coffee cups for not choosing them in the morning. lol  :rotflmao:

I saw an article on Pantheistic Pagans and it was really good! As soon as I read it, it was clear to me what my path was. Basicly, the author wrote something like, Pantheistic Pagans are "scientifically athiest", (for lack of a better word), but become Pagan because they, as humans, need that element of ritual/ceremony in their lives. (not to mention the attachment to nature) Perfect! I have never heard a more perfect discription of me!  :cheer:
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: earthmuffin on January 30, 2012, 09:47:53 AM
 :cheer:  Glad you are finding your path, Mrs H!
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: VisionFromAfar on January 30, 2012, 04:25:05 PM
:cheer:  Glad you are finding your path, Mrs H!
:yeahthat: :yeah:
Title: Re: Questions, Questions, and more Questions...
Post by: Artemis_moon on January 30, 2012, 06:09:01 PM
I personally believe the start to any pagan or wiccan journey begins with educating yourself. Read alot and expose yourself to all cultures and options. You never know what speaks to your soul if you dont open your mind and allow new things to come into it. The basics are also vital. Herbal magick/medicine, Candle magick and uses. The colors and their meanings. Construction of spells and rituals. Being Pagan and Wiccan is no different then going to a regular school. You have to start with the fundamentals before you can jump to the advanced courses. Once you have a large knowledge base of different cultures and religions you can start to build on how you wish to live your life, how you want to walk down your path. Once you figure that out, its all about intent and following your instincts. Dont allow the abundance of information to over whelm you and make you trip up. Know your knowledge level and nurture your mind body and spirit. As you increase your education and awareness your ability will advance with it. Most things in any of the many pagan faiths comes with experience and time. With time you will gain wisdom and with that wisdom comes power. Both spiritual and magical. Ask questions like your doing right now, but know you are the one that holds the power and control over your faith. All we can give you is advice and examples pulled from our lives and our chosen path. But each path must be of your own making and suited to who you are deep with in.

Whether you chose to be a solitary practitioner like myself or you chose to be apart of a coven, is a very personal choice. But your not limited in a huge way. Yes being apart of a coven allows for a larger variety of abilities from individuals with in the coven, and gains your rituals and spells to have more energy and power. But even as a solitary you can do many if not all things on your own. The benefit of being solitary, is in my opinion your able to specialize. You dont have to focus as much on group rituals and more on personal individual advancement and study. Granted you can do this with a coven, but having less social distraction and responsibility allows for you to focus more on yourself and your energy. I am a solitary practitioner and if you would like to chat more, please message me. I would love to help you out and give you tips that have helped me.

Blessing to you )0(