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Author Topic: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion  (Read 307 times)

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crystal wolfstar

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Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« on: June 17, 2013, 07:34:08 PM »

I think it all comes down to whether a person is going to be responsible for their actions. Some people think that they can escape consequences, like the Rule of Three or karma.

Karma is very real, when you view it through the Eastern lens of cause and effect. I don't have evidence of recording angels and the like, though.

I tend to agree with Doreen Valiente that the Rule of Three doesn't add up (Your mileage may vary, etc.)
http://www.earthspirit.com/fireheart/fhdv1.html

FH: Maybe it's karma or the threefold return, and they're saying, "We'll give it to her one way or the other."

DV: I don't believe this stuff about the threefold return, you know. I've always been very skeptical about that, but I'm a lot more skeptical than I used to be. The older I get, the more skeptical I get. I don't believe in all sorts of things that I used to believe in.
 

FH: Where do you think the threefold idea came from?

DV: I think old Gerald cooked it up in one of his rituals, and people took it terribly literally. Personally, I've always been skeptical about it because it doesn't seem to me to make sense. I don't see why there has to be one special law of karma for Witches and a different one for everybody else. I don't buy that. But there's an awful lot of things I don't buy.
 
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Man Yellow

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 07:35:39 PM »

I think it all comes down to whether a person is going to be responsible for their actions. Some people think that they can escape consequences, like the Rule of Three or karma.

Karma is very real, when you view it through the Eastern lens of cause and effect. I don't have evidence of recording angels and the like, though.

I tend to agree with Doreen Valiente that the Rule of Three doesn't add up (Your mileage may vary, etc.)
http://www.earthspirit.com/fireheart/fhdv1.html

FH: Maybe it's karma or the threefold return, and they're saying, "We'll give it to her one way or the other."

DV: I don't believe this stuff about the threefold return, you know. I've always been very skeptical about that, but I'm a lot more skeptical than I used to be. The older I get, the more skeptical I get. I don't believe in all sorts of things that I used to believe in.
 

FH: Where do you think the threefold idea came from?

DV: I think old Gerald cooked it up in one of his rituals, and people took it terribly literally. Personally, I've always been skeptical about it because it doesn't seem to me to make sense. I don't see why there has to be one special law of karma for Witches and a different one for everybody else. I don't buy that. But there's an awful lot of things I don't buy.
 


I like that.
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crystal wolfstar

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 07:36:02 PM »

Hmm.  Perhaps we have something in common.  I work with energy savings guarantee projects all the time.

I work with yanking natural gas out of rock substrate.  I'm not actually on the production side, though.

Quote
I want to apologize if I gave the impression that the thread was shutdown.  For future reference, closed threads are locked by the staff.  In regards to Dick Cheney, want to point out that we have a policy of no political discussions on this board.  There are a wide range of political stances represented here and political discussions are better left to political boards.

Okay.  I wasn't presenting it as a political point.  Politics are the stupidest thing mankind ever invented.

I was presenting it as an example of karma not functioning.  Unless karma means he gets reincarnated as a dung beetle or a mime or something. Not because he is on one side or the other, the sides are meaningless...But rather on the merits of his behavior as CEO of Halliburton, and then the whole shooting his friend in the face with a shotgun while "hunting" staked-down birds.

Very true.
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Stormjester

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 07:39:04 PM »

I figure karma pretty much works, although I have heard that magicians think they can mitigate it, or throw theirs onto others. Sounds a lot like black magic to me..and I figure it doesn't really work.
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Man Yellow

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 07:42:13 PM »

I figure karma pretty much works, although I have heard that magicians think they can mitigate it, or throw theirs onto others. Sounds a lot like black magic to me..and I figure it doesn't really work.

I am too ignorant to say whether or not it works.  I can say that I have seen remarkably little evidence of it.

Example:  Lloyd Blankfein.  If Karma worked, he'd be a second-assistant toilet scrubber in Bhopal.  But he is still the CEO of Goldman-Sachs, 6 years after he finished raping the entire world.
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dragonspring

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 07:42:59 PM »

Okay.  I wasn't presenting it as a political point.  Politics are the stupidest thing mankind ever invented.

I was presenting it as an example of karma not functioning.  Unless karma means he gets reincarnated as a dung beetle or a mime or something. Not because he is on one side or the other, the sides are meaningless...But rather on the merits of his behavior as CEO of Halliburton, and then the whole shooting his friend in the face with a shotgun while "hunting" staked-down birds.
Cool, I just didn't want to go down that road.  Some people believe that karma can carry through many lifetimes, that it affects their descendants, or that a soul has to atone for their karma in purgatory before being reborn, or that it becomes undead and roams the wasteland forever.  There are many different beliefs on how karma works.  It is not something that can be observed or proven, but is a matter of faith.
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Man Yellow

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 07:43:40 PM »

Karma - to me, and this is only my admittedly-ignorant opinion - seems to be a way to excuse the universe for allowing evil people to do rotten things, and to excuse ourselves for not doing something about it.
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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2013, 07:45:17 PM »


Cool, I just didn't want to go down that road.  Some people believe that karma can carry through many lifetimes, that it affects their descendants, or that a soul has to atone for their karma in purgatory before being reborn, or that it becomes undead and roams the wasteland forever.  There are many different beliefs on how karma works.  It is not something that can be observed or proven, but is a matter of faith.

I can understand the afterlife version of karma.  Really Awful Things Await Bad People and all that.

I'd just be happier if the universe took care of some of the jerks now, you know?  Of course, I am old enough to understand that the universe was not set up for my convenience.
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dragonspring

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 07:49:38 PM »

You are certainly entitled to that belief.  I might have said the same thing 20 years ago when I was bitter about a terrible injustice in my own life.  My beliefs have changed a lot since then - I guess you could say I actually have beliefs.   :D
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Man Yellow

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2013, 07:54:54 PM »

You are certainly entitled to that belief.  I might have said the same thing 20 years ago when I was bitter about a terrible injustice in my own life.  My beliefs have changed a lot since then - I guess you could say I actually have beliefs.   :D

I am lacking in beliefs.  That is why I am here; my old beliefs no longer satisfy my questions about things.  I have been reading for hours, over the last 2-3 days.  Not sure what the hell's going on, yet.  I need to read more.

Question:  Asutru.  There is apparently some kind of split between "folkists" and "universalists", and one side or the other tends to be a White Nationalist thing.  I hit wikipedia, for all the good it did me, and it mentioned the split, but not WHICH side was the WN side.  Both sides claim to renounce racism.  I can't be bothered with racism, it is an irrelevance.  So which is which?  I do not wish to spend a lot of time reading up one side or the other, only to find that I've spent a lot of time reading something that will be of no use to me.  Semantics suggests that "folkist" would be the WN crowd, but that is an assumption, and we know what assumptions are the mother of.
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dragonspring

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2013, 08:03:53 PM »

Most Folkish groups believe that Asatru is a Northern European religion and may limit membership to those with that ancestry.  There is a lot of emphasis on the Ancestors and traditionalism in Folkish Asatru.  Not all Folkish people are racists, although there are some who might think so based on the exclusiveness.  Based on what you have said, I think you would be better off looking at Universalists - you might want to try The Troth. However, from what I can tell, both groups follow pretty much the same ritual formats and obviously use the same lore.  It might be advantageous to see different viewpoints if it is something interesting to you.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 08:08:39 PM by dragonspring »
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Man Yellow

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2013, 08:10:43 PM »

Most Folkish groups believe that Asatru is a Northern European religion and may limit membership to those with that ancestry.  There is a lot of emphasis on the Ancestors and traditionalism in Folkish Asatru.  Not all Folkish people are racists, although there are some who might think so based on the exclusiveness.  Based on what you have said, I think you would be better off looking at Universalists - you might want to try The Troth. However, from what I can tell, both groups follow pretty much the same ritual formats and obviously use the same lore.  It might be advantageous to see different viewpoints if it is something interesting to you.

Thank you very much.  You have saved me a lot of effort.  (And to be clear, I did say "white nationalist", because there is no evidence of "white supremacy", which is a slightly different kettle of fish.  I guess the correct term would be "white-centric", since they aren't nationalists).
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Stormjester

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2013, 08:20:24 PM »

Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?
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Man Yellow

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2013, 08:25:32 PM »

Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?

I am not fond of Dawkins, to be perfectly honest, though he did some interesting neurology work (memes, to be precise, he invented the term), before he became an evangelist.

Atheism requires every bit as much faith as religion (you can't prove a negative), and has no upside. 

Also, the atheists I've met have tended to be shrill, and very insulting to people who do believe in a higher power.  I find them offensive.
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Stormjester

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2013, 08:28:36 PM »

Actually, some Pagans are atheists, supposedly.
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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 08:29:30 PM »

Karma - to me, and this is only my admittedly-ignorant opinion - seems to be a way to excuse the universe for allowing evil people to do rotten things, and to excuse ourselves for not doing something about it.

Maybe.
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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2013, 08:30:40 PM »

Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?

Or, if you're up for a quiz, Religious Tolerance has link to a neat "Belief System Selector" quiz that hits pretty close.  When I started poking around pagan paths I used that to narrow my search. ;)

http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/
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Man Yellow

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2013, 08:30:50 PM »

Actually, some Pagans are atheists, supposedly.

I haven't yet had one call me a "faith-fool".
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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 08:31:20 PM »

Karma - to me, and this is only my admittedly-ignorant opinion - seems to be a way to excuse the universe for allowing evil people to do rotten things, and to excuse ourselves for not doing something about it.

Maybe.

Perhaps.
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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2013, 08:31:35 PM »

Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?

Or, if you're up for a quiz, Religious Tolerance has link to a neat "Belief System Selector" quiz that hits pretty close.  When I started poking around pagan paths I used that to narrow my search. ;)

http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/

Okay, thanks.
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Man Yellow

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 08:41:02 PM »

1.    Unitarian Universalism (100%)                 
2.    Mainline - Liberal Christian Protestants (86%)                
3.    Liberal Quakers - Religious Society of Friends (86%)                
4.    Secular Humanism (81%)                 
5.    Reform Judaism (79%)                
6.    Theravada Buddhism (69%)                
7.    Non-theist (64%)                 
8.    Mahayana Buddhism (61%)                
9.    Orthodox Quaker - Religious Society of Friends (61%)                 
10.    Neo-Pagan (60%)                 
11.    New Thought (60%)                
12.    Taoism (60%)          

I think we can leave the Quakers out.  My hypocrisy goes only so far.

Unitarian Universalists are too damn wishy washy.  Mainline Christianity is what I left.  Judaism is too close to Christianity.

I'm not interested in secular humanism.

So:

                
         
             
          
6.    Theravada Buddhism (69%)                
7.    Non-theist (64%)                 
8.    Mahayana Buddhism (61%)                
10.    Neo-Pagan (60%)                 
11.    New Thought (60%)                
12.    Taoism (60%)          

Can't be a Buddhist (same reason as Quaker).

So:

               
                           
10.    Neo-Pagan (60%)                 
11.    New Thought (60%)                
12.    Taoism (60%)


Taoism is a no-go.  Middle of the road is for people who are afraid of being awesome.

So.

I need to look up New Thought.  Or it's neo-paganism.
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Man Yellow

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 08:42:22 PM »

Nope.  Not new thought.  Sickness is not in the mind, and the mind cannot defeat a bacteria.


Neo-paganism it is.
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crystal wolfstar

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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 08:43:50 PM »

Actually, based upon what you have said, perhaps you should read a book like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Have you considered New Atheism?

Or, if you're up for a quiz, Religious Tolerance has link to a neat "Belief System Selector" quiz that hits pretty close.  When I started poking around pagan paths I used that to narrow my search. ;)

http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/

Every time I take that test, I get something different. This week I'm a Taoist.

I think it's because there's no options for a lot of things, so I just tick something off. It jumps from "There is definitely an afterlife" to "No afterlife", for instance. No option for "I don't know, I'm not dead yet", lol.
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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2013, 08:46:28 PM »

I'm wondering what you mean by "my hypocrisy only goes so far" in your dismissal of Liberal Quakers?
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Re: Re: Karma and Beliefs Discussion
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2013, 08:47:25 PM »

I'm wondering what you mean by "my hypocrisy only goes so far" in your dismissal of Liberal Quakers?

I am not by nature or profession a peaceful man.

The Quakers are good people.  I wish more people were like them.  I am not like them.
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