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Author Topic: Punishment for Spells  (Read 1519 times)

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Paradisio

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Punishment for Spells
« on: June 17, 2013, 11:29:30 PM »

The secular legal systems of America and the like don't seem to take spells seriously even though they can harm people in ways similar to weapons. Because of this if I were to cast a spell that killed someone there wouldn't be a punishment. Doesn't this then imply that the government doesn't actually punish people in ways that are just and is in itself an unjust institution. Or perhaps what it means is that laws should be reformed to institute punishments for spells. Though then the question arises how could you in a court of law prove that someone had committed a spell that harmed someone. How can you prove to the jury that it was the spell caster and not coincidence as many of these secular people nowadays seem to believe?
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StarlingFire

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 11:33:03 PM »

The secular legal systems of America and the like don't seem to take spells seriously even though they can harm people in ways similar to weapons. Because of this if I were to cast a spell that killed someone there wouldn't be a punishment. Doesn't this then imply that the government doesn't actually punish people in ways that are just and is in itself an unjust institution. Or perhaps what it means is that laws should be reformed to institute punishments for spells. Though then the question arises how could you in a court of law prove that someone had committed a spell that harmed someone. How can you prove to the jury that it was the spell caster and not coincidence as many of these secular people nowadays seem to believe?

The legal realm and the spiritual realm are best kept separate, IMO.
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dragonspring

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 11:34:49 PM »

No kidding. What a mess that would be - it would be like the Salem witch trials all over again. 
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Stormjester

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Paradisio

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 11:41:57 PM »

The secular legal systems of America and the like don't seem to take spells seriously even though they can harm people in ways similar to weapons. Because of this if I were to cast a spell that killed someone there wouldn't be a punishment. Doesn't this then imply that the government doesn't actually punish people in ways that are just and is in itself an unjust institution. Or perhaps what it means is that laws should be reformed to institute punishments for spells. Though then the question arises how could you in a court of law prove that someone had committed a spell that harmed someone. How can you prove to the jury that it was the spell caster and not coincidence as many of these secular people nowadays seem to believe?

The legal realm and the spiritual realm are best kept separate, IMO.
But why? If a spell hurts someone shouldn't they be punished for it. If we don't punish people for spells then why punish them for knife fights or shootings? The legal system needs consistency if nothing else.
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Paradisio

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 11:44:10 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
So if it's hard to prove that someone did a specific spell, then how do we know they work at all? (I've never done any spells but I am open to their efficacy.) Or could you're argument be that the government can be wrong so it shouldn't have the ability to punish anyone for anything, and punishment should be left to the spiritual forces of the universe like Karma.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 11:46:09 PM by Paradisio »
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Ghost Wolf

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 11:49:41 PM »

In a court of law, one must prove a case involving murder beyond a reasonable doubt. How could such a certainty be established? We would end up like certain African countries where people are executed for witchcraft. Is this what you want?
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Paradisio

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 12:03:04 AM »

In a court of law, one must prove a case involving murder beyond a reasonable doubt. How could such a certainty be established? We would end up like certain African countries where people are executed for witchcraft. Is this what you want?
No, I'm just asking questions. What I am saying is that there are only a few scenarios.

1. Spells work and can kill. The legal system acts consistently. You go to jail for killing someone with a spell.
2. Spells work and can kill. The legal system remains inconsistent. You don't go to jail for killing someone with a spell.
3. Spells don't work and can't kill. The legal system acts consistently. You can't go to jail for casting spells.
4. Spells don't work and can't kill. The legal system acts inconsistently. You can receive legal punishment for casting spells.

Disragarding that specifically however, you bring up one of my points which is that governments are fallible. Even if it was very clear that I killed someone with a super powerful spell, it would still be nigh impossible for someone to prove that I did it. This same thing happens even with regular crimes where people are cleared by DNA for crimes they didn't commit but went to jail for years for. What this implies then is that punishment ought to be left to spiritual forces like Karma rather than the fallible grasp of government because it is very easy for people with that much power to go around starting up things like the Salem Witch trials. This implies that government should have no punishment powers whatsoever because of how easily that power can be used unjustly.
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StarlingFire

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 12:11:46 AM »

Why so absolutist? Are there no shades of gray?
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Paradisio

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 12:14:39 AM »

Why so absolutist? Are there no shades of gray?
Would there be shades of grey if it was you being burned at the stake or wrongly imprisoned for something you didn't do?
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StarlingFire

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 12:22:33 AM »

Why so absolutist? Are there no shades of gray?
Would there be shades of grey if it was you being burned at the stake or wrongly imprisoned for something you didn't do?

What
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holyfool

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 12:29:04 AM »

Why so absolutist? Are there no shades of gray?
Would there be shades of grey if it was you being burned at the stake or wrongly imprisoned for something you didn't do?

How would one be able to detect that malevolent witchcraft had occurred?
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StarlingFire

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 12:30:37 AM »

I'm sure that if it were provable, the courts would have a system for proving and punishing it.

But it's not provable. It has no tangible substance.
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holyfool

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 12:33:40 AM »

But it's not provable. It has no tangible substance.
That we know of...currently.
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Stormjester

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2013, 12:34:19 AM »

The real scenario:

You use magick and kill someone. Some high level adept sees that you are responsible. They do magick, and you go to jail.
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Mongo

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2013, 12:34:44 AM »

Well let me ask this.

Say I were to cast a spell that caused someone to lose their coordination when I knew them to be free-climbing a mountain. They fell off the mountain from a thousand feet up and went ker-splat on the rocks on the bottom.

How would you prove that it was me that did it and not just a bit of bad luck. After all mountain climbers fall and die all the time. California, Washington State, Colorado, Wyoming, Alaska have between 10 and 20 deaths per year on average. Splitting the difference and that's 75 deaths per year in those 5 states alone. How would you prove that a person was nudged off of a rock face due to a spell? How do you tie it to me.

Or for that matter, how do you prove that it was really a horrific accident and not me casting a spell. Say I was someone who did not like him. If they knew that I was a Wiccan and a Spell Chucker, how do you prove that I didn't fondle the goat's testicles to get him to fall off of El Capitan?

And that's the problem. There is no way at this time to quantify what Magic is and how it works. And without the ability to quantify it, if people were to go after Magic users in court proceedings you are opening yourself to people making wild accusations based on things that may or may not be true. That anyone with a grudge and an athame instantly becomes prime suspect in a crime that may not be anything more than some dumbass who forgot to check his parachute lines before tossing himself out of a perfectly good airplane.

We don't live in a perfect system. Things like that are going to be pushed aside in favor of the things we can see and touch. DNA, Fingerprints, Photographs, Blood Traces...etc.

To do otherwise invites us devolving back into the days of people accusing people based on spectral evidence. You know, those happy bygone days when I can say that Widow Whitfield was the one who poisoned my cattle because I can "see" the demon on her shoulder whispering in her ear in my dreams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_evidence
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Paradisio

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2013, 12:41:16 AM »

Well let me ask this.

Say I were to cast a spell that caused someone to lose their coordination when I knew them to be free-climbing a mountain. They fell off the mountain from a thousand feet up and went ker-splat on the rocks on the bottom.

How would you prove that it was me that did it and not just a bit of bad luck. After all mountain climbers fall and die all the time. California, Washington State, Colorado, Wyoming, Alaska have between 10 and 20 deaths per year on average. Splitting the difference and that's 75 deaths per year in those 5 states alone. How would you prove that a person was nudged off of a rock face due to a spell? How do you tie it to me.

Or for that matter, how do you prove that it was really a horrific accident and not me casting a spell. Say I was someone who did not like him. If they knew that I was a Wiccan and a Spell Chucker, how do you prove that I didn't fondle the goat's testicles to get him to fall off of El Capitan?

And that's the problem. There is no way at this time to quantify what Magic is and how it works. And without the ability to quantify it, if people were to go after Magic users in court proceedings you are opening yourself to people making wild accusations based on things that may or may not be true. That anyone with a grudge and an athame instantly becomes prime suspect in a crime that may not be anything more than some dumbass who forgot to check his parachute lines before tossing himself out of a perfectly good airplane.

We don't live in a perfect system. Things like that are going to be pushed aside in favor of the things we can see and touch. DNA, Fingerprints, Photographs, Blood Traces...etc.

To do otherwise invites us devolving back into the days of people accusing people based on spectral evidence. You know, those happy bygone days when I can say that Widow Whitfield was the one who poisoned my cattle because I can "see" the demon on her shoulder whispering in her ear in my dreams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_evidence
So you're argument is that spells aren't real? Why would anyone believe in them then? At least enough to make big declarative statements like using spells to kill in the first place is morally wrong(which did happen in another thread). That kind of statement is starting to seem false and meaningless based on your logic.
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crystal wolfstar

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2013, 12:54:49 AM »

You'd need something other than spectral evidence, I agree. Pretty sure they outlawed that after Salem
 
So say you find the stuff used to cast the spell and you can link it to the person...like if they were seen burying a little effigy doll in a cemetary or something, and the witness told the cops, and the cops dug it up.

You'd still have to prove it actually caused the death. Otherwise it's "attempted murder by spell", something like that.
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holyfool

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2013, 01:00:16 AM »

And that's the problem. There is no way at this time to quantify what Magic is and how it works.

Well, we should be working on that...I mean, metaphysical crimes  do happen...
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crystal wolfstar

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2013, 01:03:26 AM »

And that's the problem. There is no way at this time to quantify what Magic is and how it works.

Well, we should be working on that...I mean, metaphysical crimes  do happen...

I think there's military groups who have been trying to do something like that for some time now.
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holyfool

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2013, 01:08:16 AM »

You'd need something other than spectral evidence, I agree. Pretty sure they outlawed that after Salem
 
So say you find the stuff used to cast the spell and you can link it to the person...like if they were seen burying a little effigy doll in a cemetary or something, and the witness told the cops, and the cops dug it up.

You'd still have to prove it actually caused the death. Otherwise it's "attempted murder by spell", something like that.
Ooh, that's a good point.
Maybe there could just be a "malevolent casting" charge if physical evidence of curse-casting is found.
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Mongo

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2013, 01:13:34 AM »

So you're argument is that spells aren't real? Why would anyone believe in them then? At least enough to make big declarative statements like using spells to kill in the first place is morally wrong(which did happen in another thread). That kind of statement is starting to seem false and meaningless based on your logic.

Do not put words in my mouth.

Am I arguing that spells are not real? Far from it. I'm simply saying that there is no way at this point in time to quantify what they are and how they work. It's like the universe. If we add up all the matter and dark matter we can account for only a third of the matter/energy needed for the universe to act the way that it does. There is something in the missing 2/3 of the universe that we can not identify, can not quantify, don't know it's properties. The only thing we do know is that it is making the universe act like we can observe.

Rather like Magic. There is no "magic particle" no "magic radiation" that science can currently quantify. And without such, who is to say that a person who dies of no obvious wounds or illnesses or poisons, or other situations incompatible with life was or was not killed by magic.

"Why would anyone believe in them then?" Why would astrophysicists believe in Dark Energy? We can't see it, can't measure it, can't detect it. Because it's something that explains something that is going on in the universe. Why do many believe in magic? Simply because strange things have happened as a result of using magic. Magic in our limited understanding is the only thing that best explains what happened. It may be that Magic is just another function of a scientific universe that we haven't explained yet. That there is a component that any sufficiently willed entity can tap into.

"That kind of statement is starting to seem false and meaningless based on your logic." Only in the way that you twist my logic to suit your argument. Killing someone is not a thing to take lightly. It's one of the things that you are going to have to face the consequences of doing. Even if you are justified in a self-defense situation. You have to face the police questioning, maybe a court trial to ascertain if it really was a justified killing, and you have to live with the fact that you willingly ended the life of another. They're still consequences of those actions. And that's the whole thing about life. You are warned by many sources (the Rede, Golden Rule, Bible (and other religious texts), secular sources...you name it that you must be mindful of your actions and are willing to face the consequences of those actions for good or for ill.

And frankly I would never use magic to kill someone. It's all about power and how it can corrupt. I personally have never heard of a case where someone went "mumbly-mumbly-mumbly-POOF!" and made someone fall over stone dead. And I don't think it's possible. Others may disagree but *I* limit *my* beliefs to thinking that it is not possible. And the reason is that if it were possible and could be done in such a way to kill others so no one could ever trace it to me...

Well there are a lot of people I'm not sure I could resist using it on. That's the corruption. How long before I started using it to actually kill off those who have harmed me and my family. How long before I redefine that harm to include that jerk wad that cut me off on the way to work? How long before I start using it to off people who yelled at me for no good reason? How long before I started lashing out at anyone who annoyed me?

That's why it is not a good idea to use spells to harm someone. The power could eventually corrupt. The only reason that I don't go off on a rampage of harming others is that I really don't want to face the consequences of beating the snot of all the people who aggravate the living hell out of me.
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dragonspring

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2013, 08:39:55 AM »

It's all about power and how it can corrupt. I personally have never heard of a case where someone went "mumbly-mumbly-mumbly-POOF!" and made someone fall over stone dead. And I don't think it's possible.
I agree.  I have heard claims that people under psychic attack have become terminally ill, with cancer or heart disease, etc. I suspect that part of the reason these folks get so sick if their own belief that they are cursed.  Sometimes, I think the victim is grasping for some "reason" for their illness besides the vagaries of fate.  I have only heard one person claim that a death was immediately caused by witchcraft and that person is not exactly what I would call "sane".
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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2013, 09:15:29 AM »

The secular legal systems of America and the like don't seem to take spells seriously even though they can harm people in ways similar to weapons. Because of this if I were to cast a spell that killed someone there wouldn't be a punishment. Doesn't this then imply that the government doesn't actually punish people in ways that are just and is in itself an unjust institution. Or perhaps what it means is that laws should be reformed to institute punishments for spells. Though then the question arises how could you in a court of law prove that someone had committed a spell that harmed someone. How can you prove to the jury that it was the spell caster and not coincidence as many of these secular people nowadays seem to believe?

That was put to bed by the Salem witch trials and their aftermaths, which set precedent in common law - which our law is based on - that "spectral evidence" is disallowed.
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Stormjester

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Re: Punishment for Spells
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2013, 11:10:42 AM »

People probably do not necessarily die if a direct death spell is cast on them. It is not that simple I think. However, if the spell intentions that the person die by some conventional means (car accident, murder, etc.) That spell may actually cause a death. Most black magick, I surmise, though, is meant to create a correspondent complex in the person under attack. This gives them energy and principles to be able to do things that benefits themselves (you go 'down' and they go 'up')

A few sensitivity issues:
1. Don't assume that the reason a person is affected by psychic attack is because they 'believe' it will harm them.
2. Mental illness might be one of the symptoms of psychic attack. Don't assume that it 'proves' they aren't.

Be Blessed!
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